Workshop - Santa Ana, CA School – 1977 - Page 5 of 12
Note from proofreaders: Marsha does the original transcribing from cassette tapes or CD’s and we do the final proofreading. We strive to give as close a verbatim transcript as possible, so that this can be a companion to the audio files found in the “Links” section. We work to retain Dr. Bob’s interesting vernacular. If you knew the man, not correcting his grammar and laid back “Kentucky-ese” makes reading it sound like he’s actually talking. He’d say “everone” for “everyone”; or “somewheres” instead of “somewhere”, and many more…all part of his dialect of which we’ve tried to remain true. Notations have been added where there was audience (laughter), which was quite often. He was a master at keeping the mood up!
(Audience participation is contained in parenthesis. )
Any emphasized word is in italics.
[ Any clarifications for the reader in regards to Dr. Bob’s references, words, or actions have been italicized inside brackets. ]
Continued from page 4:
He started worrying about you instead of bitchin' at you. (Laughter)
(If she answers yes to being a pathological liar, then we'd really have a problem.) (laughter)
You see that. You changed his approach towards you anyway, didn't you? He started worrying about you instead of gritchin' at you.
(Yeah, I guess so.)
But you know it's all the tone of voice you say it with. You may have been bein' a little smarty with it or you may, you know, you went on there pretty hard about startin' the wars. Of course, I'm in charge of everbody's inner feeling; everbody knows that. (laughter) Right? You had upset his inner feelings, hadn’t you?
(Yeah.)
You're a very powerful lady. Somebody blames me for somethin', I always agree to it because that makes me have power. I heard there was a man came to the world and said he was totally responsible for all the sins of the world and he's been put down in history as the most powerful guy around.
(unclear)
Sure I do. But it sure changed the course of things, which is none of my business. So I'm responsible for what I do. But I'll just agree. If you want to call me some terrible thing, I'll agree with you; I don't have to defend myself. 'Cause all you made was a statement anyway. It don't have to be true. And if it's… if I haven't done it, I'm certainly potentially capable of it, okay? Okay, so you couldn't falsely accuse me, you know that. So I don't have to defend it. If there's no defense, what is there for us to fight about? Did you ever notice that ever argument between two people is one of ‘em defendin’ themselves against something the other one made a bare statement, huh? Somebody just made a statement and the other one jumps up and down and starts defendin’ themselves. And that's a fight. You got a big argument, a hassle, a big deal goin’ on. Everbody's all upset. Isn't that right?
(In that case would you agree if you didn't actually agree with what was going on?)
Why sure. I don't ever agree with anybody that has a false, a poor opinion of me. They just have poor taste.
(Every now and again?)
But I always act like it. Oh sure, I don't want to argue with nobody. I'll concede any argument. And then they don't want to argue with me because it would be like we was playin’ chess and I just shoved them all the pieces you know; they don't want to play with me anymore.
(Do you operate that way in the business world?)
Oh yeah.
(If somebody says I'm going to take over your business, you say okay?)
Somebody comes in and says he had the lousiest dinner in the world, I complain for him, stick up for his rights, blame for him and he starts defending me. He said, "Well now it doesn't add up, that little old girl was… she was occupied… and I know she missed it. I was makin'… just forget about it." And he goes gives her a $20 tip. And a gal came and a man come in one night and he was screamin’ and yellin’ about one of the girls and I started complainin’ for him, stickin’ up for his rights and all this stuff. And he started defendin’ me, and then he started defendin’ the waitress, and then he turned around and went back over and left a $20 tip on her table and he would have never left that much had he been pleased. (laughter)
(That's funny!)
And he left her a $20 bill.
(Like one of my business partners wants me to make a concession that would involve an expenditure of $500 that I don't want to spend. Can you suggest how I can handle that?)
Oh sure.
(What?)
I always agree with and start raisin' it to five thou' and he'll back off, all right? (laughter) I come out one day and they started talkin’ about some great thing – they was gonna' spend about twelve thousand on a place that I thought was totally foolish. And so I decided that that was wonderful and I just kept taking it further and we'd build a great big plastic bubble over the whole thing so it would be perfect all year round in there and we'd have tropical plants and tropic birds. And never heard any more about it. (laughter) So take it up at least five, six thousand, you know.
(What would happen if he raised you?)
I would have raised it again. (laughter) I'm a pretty good poker player. I can raise a long time. I would have beat him to the raise so fast it would have been unbelievable. But I knew how much money was available and the 12 thou' was barely available and what I was puttin' up there was no way. But I made it look that if we didn't get the whole thing, why bother with that little bit, you know? I never contend with anybody, dear. Okay?
(Yeah.)
Just keep goin’… goin' on, get in there… goin' on. Okay? Comments, questions. Huh?
(That's a good trick, good trick I call it; maybe it's not a trick, it's good…)
…common horse sense. Which is damned uncommon.
(Yeah.) (laughter) (Terrific!)
Horse sense is very uncommon. But there's no reason to ever contend and have a fight with anybody; you just agree with 'em. Somebody comes up and tells me how terrible a mistake I'm makin’ and I don't dare to change it anyway, but I always say, “Thank you for reminding me. I appreciate that.”
(What about someone accusing you of doing something?)
I've been accused of everthing – you name it.
(You agree that you did do it?)
Oh, not necessarily. I say, "Well, that's highly possible". And it is. (laughter) Right? So somebody accuses you, say, "Well, it would be possible, but I doubt if it could be demonstrated, but it's highly possible, isn't it?" Hmm? It's always possible that you've done anything. You say, "Well, that sounds maybe like it might be about right. Could’a been." You just don't have to go defendin' yourself. You go on the defense, you've always had a fight, is that right?
(That's right.)
Every time you've defended your position of your image of yourself and so forth, you had a fight. If I know I'm just perfect, I don't have to defend it. Somebody just has poor taste makin' remarks about me. Isn't that right, Marg?
(Yes.)
I don't see any reason to defend against people with poor taste; that looks like a waste of time.
(That makes it… that sure makes it a lot easier on you.)
Right? And that's what I'm interested in. [he chuckles] I'm lazy.
(Can I ask you a question about reporting to X? I've just sort of started practicing doing that and you said that in order to have something, like, come to pass, it has to come from a feeling?)
Right, and a feeling has to come from an act.
(Correct, then you can't just say, "Barbara is reporting to X…")
You can say it all you want to…
(But it doesn't mean anything.)
But you might as well be talkin' to the chair over there. In the first place what in the world do you need? You got everthing. See, I don't go around buggin' X 'cause I already have everything. Don't you? You got food, clothing, shelter, transportation, interesting things to do, interesting people to be around, delightful companions. What else you want?
(More, better, different.) (laughter) (Yeah, yeah, I hear you.)
Okay. I don't see anything to report for X for me, for sure. Maybe I would for somebody else, but never for me 'cause I have everything. Already. Don't you?
(Yes, but I don't understand about reporting to X.)
Well, that's all fine, we'll tell you about it later. You and I will go up and sit in the corner and talk about it.
(Okay.)
( I wanna… could you talk about it? I'd like to, you know…)
What X is?
(Yeah.)
I don't know. It's whatever Life is. And it does respond and always does the appropriate thing for the information it receives. Information it receives is only from feeling and feeling can be determined by the way I act, or it can be just let drift and be any durn thing. That's the gist of the whole thing. That's simple enough, isn't it? If you went to stand up, for instance, huh? you don't know how to move all those muscles. You wouldn't even know what is the first direction you did to stand up, would you? All you do is you're aware you want to stand up. You have a feeling – you want to stand up.
(Right.)
And X stands the body up. It pulls the head up far enough to get it all hangin’ up there. 'Cause it's sure even X couldn't balance it from the bottom – it's too many wiggly joints in it. So it pulls the head up just far enough to leave your feet on the ground, okay? And then you have a feeling you want to go open the door, and it's stuffy in here or somethin', and he goes and moves all that down there and opens the door. And you don't know how to walk, do you?
(No.)
You don't know how to stand up. You don't know how to change a ham sandwich and a glass of milk into human flesh and blood, do you?
(No.)
X does it every day with the greatest of ease, huh? But it only responds to your feelings, not your words. And, you know, it always does the appropriate thing for the way you are feeling. Now if you feel that you're in great danger, it prepares your body to fight or run, okay? You don't know how to do all that. And if you feel that everthing's serene and peaceful, it leaves you, it prepares your body to sit and be relaxed, right? And in the middle of the night it …(sentence gets cut off mid stream) End of CD 9
Santa Ana School – CD 10
I’m very thankful I was invited to this party.
(How do you know what the other party was?)
Well, it could be, but if it's over there, I may get invited there later. Or maybe I was there just before I came here.
(Mm-hmm.)
I don't remember which party I was at just ‘fore I came here, do you?
(Well, people believe we're at different parties at the same time — we're in different realities.)
Well, I know, but I've seen people that believe in genies too. I'll tell you a story about that off by ourselves. (laughter)
(That's a tease.)
What?
(When you say I'm gonna tell you privately later.)
Well, I’ll tell you too, but I just wouldn't be quite comfortable tellin’ my genie story in here.
(Must be something strong in that coffee.)
(Would you be comfortable telling us all in there?)
You want the genie story. All right, I'll tell it — Good Lord — I don't mind. Just turn your tape recorders off.
[So he told the Genie Story but it didn’t get taped. Then the talk resumes.]
We’ll talk about motion.
(About what?)
Motion. Now most everything that we do could be reduced to motion. It's just another way of saying it, okay? So if I walk up and [he sticks his hand out to someone to shake hands] I have extended you a motion and you returned it, huh? And that's a completed deal.
So there's — about the only things you can do with motion is [he writes the 4 things on the board] originate, return, hold and there is another thing that could be done is destroy it. Now, most people spend most of their time returning and holding motion. So very few come up with originating it — but there's a few originators, you know — comes along, says, “Hi,” and you returned it. And that was part of this completed transaction. But, if I come up and say a dirty word to you, hmm?
(Um-hum.)
Called you dirty things or insulted you in some way, I originated that and you would either return it or hold it, hmm? You’d either call me a dirty name or you would just put it in and feel badly about it, right? Now that's holdin’ motion and is very destructive to us. That's what you call having Accounts Receivable. Okay? You would hold a lot of these and that is very dangerous. Now to return motion would be all right except that ever now and then you run into one that's bigger than you are and that hurts when he starts returning again, huh? So returning motion is not civilized and holdin’ motion is dangerous. Hmm? Now you can see that easy enough, can't you?
(I don't see that. What's holding motion?)
Well, I come up and.....
(Accounts Receivable is a term they use in their..........)
Okay, so I come up and give you a hard way to go and you being the lady that you are, you would just hold it inside and resent it. Okay? That's holdin' motion and you would resent me for having done it, okay? And the resentment will burn your innards out, okay? So that's holdin' motion. That all right, Chris? Do you see how that one would go?
(That's why the Accounts Receivable is there.)
Well, the Accounts Receivable is where I've — you know — wanted to get even with you and I wake up in the middle of the night dreamin' about it and all sorts of things, but I don't do anything 'cause I'm a gentlemen, you understand.
(Do you ever see returning motion?)
Yeah, it's called fightin'.
(Returning motion?)
That's fighting. “That word just popped out – I never did plan that,” 'cause I said I'm civilized, really. Now, the other thing is to destroy motion, okay? Now most people live together for years and neither one of ‘em ever originate or destroy motion — they just return and hold, return and hold. They have fights and then one settles down and holds a lot. You ever hold any?
(Um-hum.)
Yeah, you call that being good. (laughter) Right?
(Right.)
You were good and understanding and victimized and you just held it in there, but you would have liked to clobbered him – but one just doesn't do that. Right. So we seldom originate and seldom hold, so there's very little creative action goes on which is from here even though we created a fight sometimes. Now the destroyin’ motion is an entirely different thing which we have been talking about for the last two or three days here, okay? That I don't have to respond, I'm in charge of my response. So you come up and say, “Bob you are a dirty old man,” and I said, “Yes, but I'm rather the handsome dirty old man. I'm a well-dressed dirty old man,” and then what are you gonna do about it, you know? You've destroyed your whole attack, huh? And so as I said this mornin' there wasn't anything anybody could say about us that either I haven't done or that I am capable of, potentially capable of, right? That's about right, isn't it?
So then if I admit to that and I have no… I just go ahead and make a little joke out of it and I don't defend myself or try to put you down – I don't return it or don't defend myself – I have destroyed the motion. It just went out of being – right there. Yes?
(Somebody may not like that and haul off and swing at you for a response such as that.)
Well, then he originated a motion and I would dodge… (laughter) and say, "That was a good lick there, man – I like that."
(Okay.)
So far, in 70 some odd years it hasn't happened that way and I've destroyed a hell of a lot of motion. Mama told me that fightin' was hard on my clothes and she wouldn't buy me anymore, and so I don't get in fights. But I've never had anybody do that and I've destroyed a lot of motion.
(Were they made verbally, come back when you –)
Oh yes, verbally and I just pull another funny and they go on about their way. So you can destroy a tremendous amount of violent motion, huh?
(Like, when I tried that a couple times, I got back, "You're just saying that, you know.”)
Well, that's what I did.
(...to just not communicate...)
And so? It's like a little friend of mine that somebody gives her a big bunch of stuff and, you know, kinda lays one out for making a big pass, she says, "I'm impressed!" And somebody was tellin’ her the other day how much he was such a bore (he knew he was a bore), she said, "So?" It's just somethin' to come back with — that's destroying motion. Bam! Somebody gives you a big line of stuff and you say, "So?"
(Or, furthermore?)
So? Which means, “Give me the rest of it.” You know, it's the tone of voice you put on. "So?" It's gone, you see. So that is destroying motion and it seems to be a more civilized approach than fighting which can be either verbal or otherwise, right? And the other thing is that it sure beats holdin' because holdin' will give you ulcers, migraine headaches or thready pains — the whole schmear, hmm? Make an old lady out of you. You want none of that, huh?
(And make you fat.)
It will make you fat, yeah ‘cause you're holdin' a lotta motion. Motion is energy and so you can get fat. And most of us go around holdin' a tremendous amount and we also go through a lot of time of returning motion to other people. We call that defending ourselves or straightenin’ ‘em out, or makin’ ‘em see it like it is, okay? Now, of course, some of us never do anything like that; but some have, hmm? You ever do any of that, Robin? How about you? You never do.
(The holding?)
Yeah.
(Uh… yes.)
You hold a bit of it. So it is much simpler to just destroy it and be done with it in that transaction. And you can go on and probably be very good friends with the person who, if you sit there and bat it back and forth like a tennis game, you know – I return it to you and you return it to me and I return it to you – and that gets monotonous after while. Yes, dear?
(But you have to use some action to destroy. Ignoring it doesn't work, right?)
Oh, no. Just ignoring it would just — that's a pretty way of holding it. That's the “ladylike” way of holding it.
(So saying something is doing an action.)
You really destroy the thing. It's ended then, the whole transaction is over with. ‘Cause If you just attempt to ignore it… now if you really ignored it, it'd be all right. But most of the time when we are ignoring things we are holding it. That's the ladylike way of holding motion.
(Right.)
I think most everbody here has done a little holding.
(Tolerating?)
That's the holding. You know, “You know you're bad, but I'll show you how good I am and put up with you.” That's toleration.
(How about adjusting, isn’t that another word for holding?)
Well, isn't it? It's just another way of holding. I adjust to that. If I show you I'm more superior than you are and I hold all your nasty insults and not fight back, huh? You do that every once in a while?
(I?)
Yeah, and late in the night they break out.
(I did that.)
Yeah.
(I did.)
They break out later, right – and you did hold it in.
(Yes.)
And so you know about it then. Now this is just one way of saying what we're talking about all the time. What's the next — does that cover the subject sufficient, Chris? Hmm? Okay, next subject. Who wants it? Yes, sir?
(On that same subject… to destroy — the easiest way then is to just change the subject.)
Well, as long as you're not holdin' it but seems — you are completed with it, okay? You got your lick in and got it done, but you did it with a joke instead of somethin' else. And there is, of course, other ways of destroying motion. One you could go take a bathtub… wet towel and beat the bathtub with it but that's kind of hard on towels. (laughter) Okay, who's got another subject they'd like to talk about? I'll talk about anything. Yes, dear?
(The Four Forces.)
Initiative, Resistance, Form and Result.
(Does anyone have a copy of Headlines?)
No, we don't use those things. (laughter) What about it? What do you want to know about Headlines?
(I have a note to myself that I had a question on a certain page and I didn't bring my book, so… Could you talk a little bit about the Four Forces and use examples that are not only a physical example that seems easy to see, but something that would be someone having ideals and going out to get a job or starting a business?)
Yeah, we'll do that.
(Or a relationship, too.) (chuckling)
I don't know anything about relationships, but we'll do it some way or other. So in any completed phenomena there is four forces. I said in a completed phenomena.
(In a completed phenomena.)
Right. Initiative, Resistance, Form and Result. And Result, in turn, is either Initiative or Resistance and sets off a new one down here. And it goes on and on. And this is just the way everthing works.
(Initiative…?)
Initiative, Resistance, Form, Result. Now to make it very clear and easy, I will use a physical form that's easy to check up on first, okay?
(Mm-hmm.)
So you were going to Initiate making an iron vase, okay? So first you would have your molten metal, right? And you would have to pour it into a mold of some sort [the Resistance], 'cause if you just poured it out here, it'd just be a blob, right? And when you got the mold, then you would have the Form of your iron vase and the Result would be that you could plant flowers in it, huh? And that would then set off another Initiating an indoor flower garden and then you would have Resistance to that, which is the heat in the house and etc. etc. and so on down the line. And then you would have the Form of some little pretties and the Result would be that somebody would enjoy the flowers in the pot and so on down the line.
Now when we go to do this on the inside, so first off I think I'm going to get me a – what is the word these days? — relationship. Now let's say, “a mate.”
(Oh, that's even better.)
Yeah, I like “a mate.” So get me a mate. That's Initiate. So I put on my best and go out with my prettiest smile on, lookin' around or maybe I go out with my sad and beautiful thing, showin’ how terribly lonely I am and why don't somebody pick me up and somethin'. I've seen both methods used — plus a few more.
(Yeah.) (Sure.)
Now there's a resistance to that. The guy begins to think, “What if I'm gettin' taken?” You know, “It's gonna cost me a lot of loot to support a mistress.” And it does. And he starts puttin' all kinds of conditions up before this gets goin' and he might even run off a time or two. The Form is then that I would not get it all goin' and if I did, it would have to be modified a little bit from what I intended it to be. Maybe I'm gonna have to pay half the rent, huh? You know, “We're goin' dutchy on this thing.” And the result is, there'll be a certain amount of friction there. That right? Now this is the way it generally goes.
So you're going to get you a career. So you Initiate by goin' to school and gettin' yourself all educated in public health, we'll say. And then the Resistance comes along: “But if I take that job over there, I won't get to run because I'm too much under government control. And I have to do it just like they want to do it and I'd like to do it differently. Well, I could go do it differently… I could open up my own place and do it that way. But then I don't have sufficient capital,” and this can go on till the Resistance never gets past that. It just remains there. You ever been through that, gettin' a job or doin' some kind of arrangement — even an apartment?
(Yeah.)
And then the Form never does really materialize. And the Result is, of course, that being in absence of Form, the Result is confusion. ‘Cause we're sittin' here with a big career here, you know. “I've got a career.” But the Resistances are that there’re gonna be several little things I don't like in it. I have a friend who sold a business for approximately two million dollars about seven years ago. He owed approximately a million dollars in debts on the business, so he paid the million off and he had about a mil left. And he come to me and said, “I'll go in business.” I said, “Fine.” So I mentioned two or three things that I knew of at the moment and each one of ‘em, he told me, "Well, that would tie me down."
(Oh. One little condition.)
And I said I have noticed that when I have a business that makes me any money, I am tied down — I gotta be there. You know, I could hardly (even though I'm losing money here, but I'm taking in a little bit) if I went out the door and said, “Well, you folks just throw it back there on the shelf. I don't want to be tied down with you all week,” I think you'd get ticked off and leave. Is that about right? Hmm?
(Could be.)
Somethin' like that. So in all of these things, you find everthing I'd come up with for him over the next several years, he said well, either it would cost too much to go into it or it would tie him down so he wouldn't have any freedom or that it looked like somethin’ he didn't wanna do because he'd already done that. So this went on until the whole mil was totally gone — broke. And then he comes to me and says he wants to go into business and I said, "Well, we'll do so and so.” But now he's tied down. He's in the business but he's tied down. And he don't have as many dollars – it's all gone and we had to put up a few nickels to get him started. And so he's totally broke now. Now that's where we come with a little Resistance. The Resistance is the ideal, is it not?
(Yeah.)
Biggest resistance I have to doin’ anything in the inner world that Miss Joan asked for is the ideal. Now I want to, we'll say, have a companion. But I start checking her over, you know. And she's too young, she's too old — she's too fat — she's too skinny — she's too highly educated — she's too strong — she's too much of a weakling — she doesn't have enough education. And I can come up with a million of ‘em, right? Now I don't ever have companionship that way, right? Is that correct then? So you see the resistance to all our inner states is basically the ideal that we have set up. Hmm? Did you ever set up one? And that just stops everthing cold in its tracks. Did you ever think of some ideal man you'd like to have around?
(Mm-hmm.)
Have you ever found him? No.
(No.)
(In the outer world would you say it was technical ability?)
No, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I would usually say that it's, again, the ideal. He had an ideal — the man I just mentioned. And this is for real – I'm not making it up — was that he wanted freedom and affluence at the same time.
(That's still inner.)
No that was still in the outer world — he couldn't go to work. He couldn't make a business so it's always in the outer. So there's a jillion resistances on the outside to do things. For one, there's the weather some days. Say you was goin' out to play tennis this morning and the wind started blowin’ faster that you could hit the ball. So you know it'd be a little resistance, wouldn't it? There's the weather. There is obstacles of finance. There is a jillion of 'em; but most of 'em are inner anyway. And the biggest obstruction to anybody really livin’ well is the ideal — that's the big resistance. Now if I could look at that, then that resistance becomes very minimized, does it not? I can have about anything if I don't set up some big ideal about it all. Hmm?
(Yes.)
Isn't that correct? Now you see some guy can come along and look at you, Robin, as beautiful as you are, and he can set up an ideal you didn't quite fit — he wanted a blond with blue eyes, or he wanted you to be more mature. Blech! And so on, you see. He could just leave you standin' there ‘cause these ideals got in the way and he'd leave the utmost of prizes, doesn't he? Can you imagine that? Right?
(Yes.)
He'd walk right on because you didn't - quite - fit - the - ideal. That's all. So the biggest obstruction, the biggest resistance to us initiating and carrying out anything is the ideal that we set up that has to be met. We put it yesterday that the condition I have to have met, before I will allow myself to enjoy being. What conditions do you have to have met before you will allow yourself to enjoy just being? You have any?
(No.)
Not at all. Then you don't have any ideals set up. Huh?
(No more.)
But you have had those quite a bit?
(Yeah.)
And they have interfered tremendously in your enjoying being, is that right?
(Yes.)
So you see that if we really touch down and if we see that the ideal is the one that's the biggest obstruction, and who built it, little Robin?
(she giggles) (I did.)
Huh – I did. And of course, they offered me a lot for sale everywheres I go and they let you have 'em at bargain prices and pay for 'em later. Give you terms anyway you want, so you'll buy the ideal, okay? But the ideal stops about everthing. Hmm? That's the biggest Resistance. And with it in the way you never get the Form built, do you? And without the Form, there can be no Result and so then everybody says, I'm what? Frustrated. “I had all this beautiful plan and I couldn't find anything that met the ideal so I've never had a companionship; or if I did, it didn't last because he wouldn't fit the ideal. And so then I don't have the Form of companionship.” And the Result is whatever goes with companionship – it’s supposed to be joy, peace, long life, all this good stuff. Hmm? Is that what's supposed to go with it, hon?
(Yep. Yes.)
That's what's supposed to go with it. And so we never did get that because we had an ideal and nobody could come around, hmm? You got any ideals as to what a companion should be like?
(Mm-hmm.)
Okay. You got a companion full-time these days? No.
(laughter) (Part time.)
How about you, hon?)
(Me?)
Yeah, you got an ideal of what kind of a thing a companionship ought to be?
(Oh definitely.)
And do you have a companionship goin' now?
(Full time, no.)
Okay. (laughter) It should be evident, okay? Now that doesn't mean that we would have nothin' go on except so and so. But you see there's so many beautiful people around if we didn't set up these little ideals. I don't mean I'm goin' out with some bum; but I never found the ideal person. Have you, Gaye?
(No, so that's why I go out with three or four at a time.)
Well, that's right. That way if you can find 'em, you almost got it in the four of them. But they sometimes refuse to bein’ tied up in the same bundle, don't they? [he’s chuckling] Right!
(That's true.)
Right. Still lookin' for an ideal?
(No, not in that area.)
Okay, nowhere. In what areas are you looking for, honey?
(Jobs.)
Well, all right and we can just go through that. Now we'll take the job bit. So I want a job that's ideal, hmm? And I've never found one that fit it yet, is that right? So I have to stay in some job I don't like – or do without. Because the ideal job is like this ideal business that my friend wanted – you know, one that didn't tie him down, brought in a lot of money. I haven't found that durn thing yet. You know ever time I make a lot of money, I gotta work. I gotta be there. Did you ever notice that?
(Mm-hmm.)
You?
(Yep.)
You run a business?
(Not now.)
Well, but you have.
(I did.)
And when you were, you were tied to it. You couldn't leave and be gone all the time and hope to have any business, could you?
(No.)
No way. So then — but the ideal was to have that kind. So then you didn't exactly like what you were doin', hmm?
(Well, somewhat.)
Well, I know, but it was a bother, you was tied down — you fussed about havin’ to be there five days a week or six or whatever — a little bit. And always lookin' for somethin' that would fit the ideal and it never comes up, does it?
(No.)
Now what would fit your ideal job, honey?
(My ideal job? You want to hear about my ideal job?)
Yeah, I wanna hear about it. Somebody here probably knows where you can pick it up in the mornin'.
(I can work when I want to — when I feel like it.)
That's freedom.
(Be a babysitter.) (What?) (Be a babysitter!) (laughter)
But there's another thing goes in that eliminates the babysitting — she wants to spend a lot of money.
(Yeah, that’s right — make a lot of money — true, true. That's just some of the conditions.)
Yeah, go ahead with it.
(Oh, you want to hear some more?)
Sure, I want to hear the whole ideal, honey.
(Of my perfect job? I'm not really sure what my perfect job is.)
That's for sure. [laughing] It don't exist!
(But you know I'm a little confused with this because some people, okay, it seems to me that some people — well some people believe in soul-mates. Is that another one of your inaccurate things?)
Believe in what?
(Have you ever heard of the term soul mate?)
Yeah, I heard of that, yeah, I heard of it. I also heard of womb mates too.
(Womb mates?) (Laughter)
(Some people seem to have the perfect job for them or the perfect mate for them.)
Well, you didn't talk to ‘em — that was when you stood off and looked at it.
(But even when you ask them, they say that, and that may be because of their attitude, they decided to make it something...)
Well, that's true, but they found the ideal; but it didn't make 'em happy, I'll bet you. The lady just behind you. She found the ideal husband, but ask her if it fixed everthing up?
(She turns around and asks her) (Fix everything up?)
(No!) (laughter)
But she found the ideal husband — she really found him. She can’t fuss about that department, okay? Is that right, Chris?
(Yes.)
You found the ideal husband.
(Sure did.)
But he didn't complete the whole ideal picture, did he? There's still smog in the Los Angeles basin or too many people live there. He works in some kind of business that keeps him all tied up and gone all the time and all that good stuff.
(Isn't there also a fine line between this because you could almost be selling yourself short, too, you know, in not being picky enough if you’re a career person.)
That's right… that’s the one you wanna watch, honey. You see it's like a guy told me the other day that he wasn't gonna work and do anything he wasn't paid for because that would be cheatin' himself. 'Course he hasn't had a job in a year or two. Right?
(Yeah.)
So you can set up an ideal and you can keep lookin’ for careers and jobs and people to share a life with and everthing or you can just start lookin' around and see what really appeals to you. It don’t have to be ideal. A lot of things appeal to you, but when you start analyzin’ — you know Americans are great on analyzin’. They gotta analyze it to see if it fits the ideal. Now you found a lot of people you really like, is that right, honey?
(Definitely.)
But they weren't ideal, so you began to pick on 'em and poke 'em in molds and got your little hammer and your little chisel and started tappin' em down in there and they get awful gritchy about that — but they were pretty nice people to start with. But not ideal, right?
(You know I always tend to look after a while, look at the negative parts.)
Well, naturally that's all you ever see. You see if I rolled a statue of a woman up here — see — and I brought you up here and stood you beside it, there'd be some places you'd probably bulge over; so that would be errors of commission, hmm? And there'd be some places that you didn't fill out all the way on my statue for sure, okay? (laughter) And so that would be errors of omission on your part, honey. And all I could see would be the flaws because you didn't fit my stupid statue. But now if I was goin' out to dinner this evenin' with a companion, which one would I rather take, you or that damn pile of rock?
(in a joking tone) (I don't know, don't know what the rock looked like. No!) (and she starts laughing)
I don't care what that rock looked like, honey, I'll take you, okay? I'd take anybody in preference to that thing. But you see, I can never see you. When we have an ideal and we have a real person, we never see either the real person or the ideal — we only see the difference between 'em and we call those all false, right?
(Yes.)
And that's what you found, that you was left with, was not the real person nor not your ideal, but the difference between 'em and that's what you got stuck with, wasn’t it?
(Yes.)
...and that's enough to leave a girl in a frustrated state forever, hmm? Just the differences between the two – you didn't even have the plaster man nor the real man, but just the differences between the two. Now, no you're not goin’ out with some old bum, but nevertheless you've met a lot of nice lookin' guys till you started comparin’ ‘em to your ideal, didn't you? And you've run across a lot of occupations and still they were fine and interesting until you compared 'em to your ideal and then it was just gobs of flaws, right?
(Right.)
And so the only thing left to do is go on some kind of a binge to try to forget this whole miserable earth we live on.
(Right) (laughing) (How did you know?)
I've been followin’ you around lately. I've been pursuin’ you lately. But that's the way it goes, isn’t it? Now, do we have to go through all that — just — I can tell you're a nice lady. I don't have to compare you to any ideal. And I'm not going out with a bum – you're an interesting person, right? So I haven't either went to one extreme or the other. You see, everbody seems to think that if you don't have the ideal, you must be satisfied with crud, huh? That's not the way it is. The world's not full of cruddy type people – at all. You’re not, are you?
(No.)
But you don't fit no ideals either – I doubt. I've never seen anybody that drawed your ideal — I've seen several, but… Have you got an ideal?
(I have tons of ideals.)
Could you draw me a real picture of it — the guy that's an ideal, and the job that's ideal. Or is it just other, different from “what is”, when you get all done with it.
(Well, it's different from what is.)
That's all, isn't it? That's really about all it amounts to — you couldn't really concisely draw me a picture of anyone else. And if you could, you'll never find it, right?
(I haven't found it yet.)
That's what I think. How long you been workin' at it?
(A long time.)
Right. Would it be possible to reevaluate, that the ideal is a piece of fallacy — totally and completely a fallacy?
(But then, you know it comes down to, like what are you goin' to give up. Do you know what I mean?)
You're not gonna give up anything because you never did have it in the first place. You can't give up somethin' you never did have. Yes, Russell?
(Well, I know this is a trite thing, but it's dangerous to really get your ideal because I'm sure with all the changing things going on that when you got it, you wouldn't want it, so why even.....)
Well, you're not gonna get it in the first place. If you did, it only lasts two seconds before it was another ideal, right?
(Well, I mean, so uhhhhh…) (laughing as he gives up)
If you got it, it'd be gone in two minutes anyway. It wouldn’t be ideal anymore. Yes, dear?
(I'm gonna rephrase the other question in another way. You have to make a decision what you're willing to live without.)
Of your ideal you mean?
(Yes.)
You might as well face the obvious – you don't have to make a decision what you're willing to live without. You merely see what's available in this world.
(Pardon me?)
You see what's available. This world has got something better than your ideal. It’s got reality. And the ideal is not. Now the disintegrating factor — you recognize that people begin to disintegrate at a very early age, do you not, Debbie?
(By growing older, yes.)
And that's right, right what I said, in gettin' more discouraged and less, really, zest in living and all this. You recognize you're disintegrating a little bit, would you?
(Yes.)
Okay. Then if you knew the source of disintegration, would you continue it? If you could know that without that source and not disintegrating, you wouldn't want to disintegrate — you kind of like you, a little bit, don't you? So I will give you the source of all disintegration. You want it?
(Giving up ideals?)
No. The struggle towards an illusion is the disintegrating factor. And an ideal is an illusion – it only exists in your head and nowheres else. That is the disintegrating factor. It is entirely conceivable that — and certainly worthy of an experiment – that 100 years from now if you wasn't strugglin' towards an illusion all the time, you would look even better than you do today and that's pretty durn good. Would you like to give it a bloody go? Huh?
(Yeah.)
Now the struggle towards an illusion is the only disintegrating factor there is. And that is economically…physically…spiritually… or any way you want to mention, including your economic well-being. The struggle towards an illusion is the disintegrating factor. Yes, sir?
(Is there a regression?)
What do you mean by a regression — that if you quit strugglin' will you go the other way?
(Yes, can there be a regression?)
I would have to say yes, because I've been there.
(Okay.)
A few years ago I looked older than you do. (laughter) [Bob chuckling] I’ll get him yet! No, I have seen a number of regressions, Russ — very decidedly — where there was a deciding recurrence — now you can't undo it all, but I've seen some decided going back the other way.
(That's on the exterior. How about the overall?)
Overall, inside, outside, vitality, everything — I've seen the person actually regenerate when, to a considerable degree, when they stop disintegrating. Now there's only one way to stop disintegrating and that is to give up the struggle towards an illusion. The struggle towards an illusion — the illusion, of course, is that we have some sort of an ideal set up all the time, huh? Now you have regressed a little bit, Little Bit. [talking to Gaye] Hmm? Is that correct?
(Oh yes, and that woman’s ideal.)
Yeah, but you have regressed back towards. I'm talkin' to Gaye over here. She was a little more disintegrated not too long ago as she is now, right? And you're gettin' back a little ways because you kind of give that up and find that the whole thing's a bowl of cherries, is that right? No matter what, it's all pretty good.
(More people say that on the physical exterior, I look a lot younger than ....)
Well, I happen to know that, so it shows all over. So you're goin' the other way a little bit. But I've seen people that were pretty deteriorated with old age. You were not, you know. You say you feel better, but I've seen pretty deteriorated with old age that went back the other way — very decidedly – when they saw the joke in struggling towards an illusion all the time. You struggle towards an illusion considerable, little lady?
(No.)
You never have.
(Well, I can't say I never have, but I don't now.)
Well, that's all right, not now. But you have struggled towards havin’ the ideal and found a little fault with what is — ‘cause the only thing you could really see was the difference between the two.
(I wasn't conscious of an ideal.)
Well, I know you weren't — nobody else is until we point it out to them, love. Nobody is. You know, you just thought that's the way things ought to be — it's not an ideal, it's just the way things should be — everybody knows that! Right?
(Yes.)
You know you didn't ever have an ideal, you just knew how things ought to be and how things should be, right? And you knew what ought not to be, didn't you?
(Yes.)
Okay, so that's struggle towards an illusion, okay? Yes, love.
(There's a book called Illusions, which suggests that people can walk on water and swim in rocks and stuff like that. How do we know what's an illusion and what's real?)
Did you ever try to swim in a rock?
(Yeah.)
Pure rock. Did you ever dive through a rock?
(I've disagreed with people about what we perceive.)
Yeah and I said did you ever dive through a rock?
(No.)
Why don't you try it tonight? You'll find out real quick which is an illusion and which isn't.
(Do I rely on my perception to....)
What else have you got to rely on except your gullibility? (laughter) Huh?
(My perception may not be accurate.)
It may not be......
(...but it's all I have.)
It's all you got and it's workable — it's kept you alive so far, right? So you have a choice of your perceptive ability and your gullibility — which one do you want to have?
(Of those two, I'll take the first.)
Okay, good. That's about the only choice you have. And I've noticed most people's gullibility is well developed or possibly even more than their perceptive ability. Is that right?
(Yes.)
Okay. So you have a choice of whether you will be gullible to somebody said Dr. Ben Told told you. Or whether you check it out for yourself with your limited ability to perceive. Which one will you take, honey?
(My own perception, but I have found that sometimes I'll perceive things one way.)
That's very true.
(And one day later, look entirely different.)
That's very true. But each day was pretty good for that day. Do you see? ‘Cause you see the way you respond is at the moment. And if you respond to something in a given way today, doesn't mean you'll respond to it the same way tomorrow, but it will be how you perceive it then. In other words you have a different amount of shall we say — light, each day? — which is perceptive ability. And it's survived you quite well up till today anyway, hasn't it?
(Mm-hmm.)
Okay. And several people here I'm sure, could relate to you some of the things they have come into by gullibility. And most of those resulted in a certain degree of non-survival for them. You been on any gullibility kicks, Robin? How about you?
(A few.)
Did they add to your survival or kind of detract from it?
(Well, once I found out that it wasn't real, it detracted.)
Right. It was detractin’ all the time you thought it was real because that's the way you found out that it wasn't real. Wasn't it? It was detracting. So you see there is a great amount of things we can say, “Well it's been written or been told…” and so forth. Dr. Ben Told is a great guy.
(Ben Told?)
Yeah. Dr. Ben Told. I been told…
(Oh!) (laughter)
So Dr. Ben Told has furnished a considerable amount of information for everbody, hasn't he? That you have to be gullible to accept.
(All right)
Now I think all those things are fantastic, you know – I can swim through a rock, but I have….
(I've heard that somebody's actually teaching people to do that — there's a school you can go to.)
Yeah, I know. It was like a lady called me the other day and said her husband was taking Eckankar and he'd been on travelin’ and she was worried about it. And I said well it seems to me that last year he went in a Ford truck down to Mexico and came back with Hepatitis and like to died. She said, “That's right.” And I said, well I bet he don't catch Hepatitis on his astral travel, so why not let him alone — (laughter) — at least he won't come back with Hepatitis off of it. You know? Did you ever think of that?
(Yep) (No I didn't.)
Well you go off travelin' around in for real, you're liable to come back with some local bugs from somewhere, is that right?
(Right.)
But this astral travel, nobody ever comes back with a bug.
(They've got other things...)
Yeah, I know, but not that — they just wind up in the booby hatch.
(Don't you feel that there are powers that we have a potential for that we're not using?)
Oh, yes. We have the power to be reasonably intelligent and damn seldom use it. (laughter) I'll agree with you 100%! Very few people use it.
(Right.)
As we said, common sense is darned uncommon. Now we all have great potentials that we have never used — that's correct. And we all have the potential to be extremely gullible. If you don't believe it, follow the healing arts for a little while — truckle around to it. I've seen ever conceivable sort of little thing, saw people bought it, felt wonderful for a little while and then it won’t work. That's where the — you know, you know the phrase, something's a drug on the market, then it won't sell anymore, huh? You know how that started? Wonder drugs were brought from the orient by the camel trains over to the near East and Eastern Europe. And they sold like wildfire and then after a year or two they wouldn't sell, so it was a “drug on the market.” [an old phrase meaning available in excess of market demand] They always had to get some back over to get new ones. That's how come Columbus was out here runnin' around, stumbled over the North American continent.
(Right)
He was trying to get a faster flow on the drugs from India to Europe so that they would catch up. End of CD 10
Santa Ana School – CD 11
...it will work beautifully.
(For a short time.)
...for a short time. You see you can only keep gullibility alive so long; and you know the great phrase is…that the con artists of the world is, “Keep hope alive, but never gratify it.” That keeps 'em goin'. Keep hope alive but never gratify it. Be surprised what you ladies could accomplish with that. (laughter)
(I’ve done that.)
I know you’ve done it (laughter) – you're keepin' hope alive but never gratifying it. But, oh man, think about tomorrow.
(Yeah, it's fun.)
Yeah… Okay, questions comments?
(Playing games.)
Which games?
(Oh, all sorts of games.)
Well, that's tomorrow morning.
(Okay.)
Tomorrow morning, we're gonna have two worlds – one of 'em's the game world, okay?
(Okay.)
Don't run me through tomorrow; I'm liable to run out of somethin' to talk about next week.
(Is that possible?)
Yes…I don't know, I've never tried it – just don’t wanna take a chance.
(What’s the longest seminar you ever gave?)
Oh, the last 40 years, somethin' like that... (laughter) …and I never duplicated it too much, I’ll tell you, okay? It's been goin' on about 40 years, this one has. Oh, I've had three to five weeks in one time – all day long, not part of the time. I'm goin' right behind you, Neal, then come up, okay?
(Is freedom only an ideal?)
What do you mean freedom an ideal? Freedom is something you do within yourself. I am free to experience whatever arises today – am I free?
(Yeah.)
Okay, it's not an ideal. Now most people that says – makes up a picture and says, "I want to be free to do as I please, when I want to and nobody's gonna interfere with my way” and etcetera. That's probably an ideal – it’s according to the way they set it up. But you truly are free always if you ever just checked up on it and it's not an ideal; it's the natural state of man. And you're only free when you are free to, not when you're trying to be free from something. You see, there's no way to be free from. But if you wanted to get to Los Angeles from here – that's just a little ways up the road, huh? And if you followed signs that all said, "From Los Angeles" and you kept followin’ that, you may wind up everwheres in the world but you'd never get to Los Angeles, right?
(laughter) (Right.)
And if you follow the ones that says "To Los Angeles," you'll be there in a very few minutes, okay? So if I am free to experience, I'm totally free. If I'm trying to be free from anything, I'm in a state of anxiety right now, is that correct?
(Yeah.)
If I'm tryin’ to be free from fat, I'm tryin’ to be free from insecurity, I'm trying to be free from the possibility of being hurt and on and on and on, I am following the signs that says, “From Los Angeles” and I'll never get there. But if I am free to experience everthing that arises in life – now, I'm not goin' out and start kickin' things and sayin’ I'm free to do anything I wanna do – I said free to experience whatever may arise – I'm truly free right now, is that right? ‘Cause we're gonna experience it anyway, you might as well do it gracefully, hadn’t you? You know if somebody comes along and causes me…oh, steals my billfold, well I'm gonna experience it, I might as well do it freely – hope he enjoyed it. I would have if he’d left it with me.
'Course one time I went to a place where they told me there was lots of pickpockets and I put a blank one in my pocket. And somebody did get it, and I laughed and laughed and laughed about his disappointment. He went to all the effort pickin' my pocket and all he got was a cheap billfold. (laughter) 'Course don't everbody have that twisted up sense of humor, do they, Debbie? (more laughter) Yes, Judy?
(Would you speak a little more about Resistance in terms of being free to…for example, you said the only disintegrating thing is the –)
The struggle towards an illusion.
(…an illusion.)
Right.
(But also it’s resisting what is.)
Well, that's an illusion, isn't it? It's an illusion that you won't experience what is – that would be the ideal, so that's the struggle towards an illusion. So, Resistance is fighting what is – the struggle to avoid what is, right? What may arise in my way today. So I'm goin' down the street and I suddenly have a little pain run across my belly. So I'm free to experience it and it's all gone anyway, but some people go into a big tizzy, huh? And resist that possibility that it ever will occur again and all good things like that. And so they wear themselves out resisting experiencing what is, which is the struggle towards an illusion again – same difference, it's just reversing it around a little bit, Judy. Same difference. Only disintegrating factor in man is the struggle toward an illusion, an illusion that he can be totally non-disturbed on this earth and that he can always have anything he dreams up. There is certain people who go around, put on classes say that, “Anything the mind of man can conceive it can achieve.” So we have some drawings that I lay out for these folks. One is a set of steps that goes around four sides of a building up on the roof, you know – on a tower at the top; and you go down forever around it. There is no stoppin’ place, but there's just straight through; but you go down. Every step is always down, huh?
(Escher? Is that Mauritis Escher – is that the guy who drew this?)
Yeah.
(Escher?)
And you cannot build it, but you can draw it.
(…and the waterfall?)
Yeah, the waterfall goes around and around and this goes on the top of the building and goes around, and then we have one of three pieces of wood put together into a triangle – that's impossible. And so what the man, the man can conceive does not necessarily mean it can achieve. Now I could conceive of a creature with pig's head, giraffe feet and a lady’s body, but I can't quite get it goin’, okay?
(Science of Mind teaches that –)
I said there was a lot of things, honey. I'd just rather not name ‘em all, okay?
(Did you say you did something with this man Escher?)
No, I didn't say I did a thing with him.
(Oh.)
I spent a dollar and a half buyin’ some drawings, okay?
(Oh.)
(Most of his things are like that. The things that people think – God, how warped was his mind – it was beautiful.)
When all he's tryin’ to do is point out that the mind of man can conceive of a lot of things it cannot achieve.
(To go to the moon and we went.)
Huh?
(To go to the moon and we went to the moon.)
Did you go?
(No, but people went.)
How do you know? It looked just like the back of El Paso to me, honey. (lots of laughter) Did you see that?
(We talked about that the other day – about going to Mars – it looked exactly like the desert out in Vegas. You know, Rod Serling wrote a story...a “Twilight Zone” about that. That these astronauts came down and thought they'd landed on some desolate planet and it turned out that right over the hill was the freeway and they had just landed in the desert in California.)
Well, I figured that was just as reasonable, you know, only I thought it was out back of El Paso and there's no freeway out there. Yes?
(Just recalling something old…there was that Amos and Andy skit – they were running around through Grand Central Park in a different state every day.)
Yeah, I remember those…so that, you know, you could have had it either way. Now, I don't know, did you go to the moon, honey?
(No. I saw it on television.)
Well, I did too. I saw that – maybe – you know, I don't know whether I saw it or not. But you know…I saw…the part I saw looked just like out back of El Paso.
(Are you interested in reading newspapers, Bob?)
Oh I read some every now and then.
(I saw the astronauts when they came back – they went there.)
I don't doubt they went to the moon but just because you go to the moon doesn't mean you can do everthing, does it? They haven't cured the common cold yet, hmm?
(I didn’t think you –)
You didn’t think what?
(I said I didn't think that you cared too much about the newspapers – that you were your own information.)
Oh, I read the Wall Street Journal every morning or two.
(Yeah, okay)
Check up on what the ads are and so forth. How’d you keep up with what's going on if you didn’t read the ads?
(laughter) (…read the ads!)
Well, that's the way you find out what people's gonna talk to you about. You read the ads and pretty soon you hear it comin’ from them as an absolute certainty fact. So, I want to know the stories of it – who put this newest gimmick out? So I read the papers once in a while – not because I figure I'm gonna find out anything.
(For amusement.)
Amusing…interesting. Besides that, when there's nobody to drink coffee with me, why I'll read the newspaper, and then I got all kinds of people to drink coffee with me. (laughter) I don't like to just sit and stare at the wall and drink my coffee in the morning, so I get somebody to talk to me. A lot of times I don't have anybody but the newspaper, so it's just as good. Did you ever see a newspaper?
(I don't care for newspapers.)
I don’t either.
(I read the Wall Street Journal too once in a while.)
That's not a newspaper.
(No.) It's worse. Really, the only good part of the Wall Street Journal is the far left hand –)
Which one’s that?
(…column on the front page.)
Yeah, well…and the ones down the middle or somewheres, and then there's a cartoon on the second page – two of 'em now – you gotta read the cartoons. Okay, another question, comment?
(Bob, would you discuss your approach to time, place and circumstance?)
Time, place and circumstance. Well, I don't have much approach – just always is. Time place and circumstance is what's here and that's what I have to deal with. Now at a different time, different place and different circumstance, a little different, you do somethin’ entirely different. So, if you report to X this, by your feeling of what's about this time, place and circumstance, then X does the appropriate response. Now if I wanted to accomplish certain things, I find it necessary to delay action upon it until the time, place and circumstance presents itself, okay? So, let's say that I suddenly had a severe urge to go fishin' and I'm way out in the desert. Now I'd look a little stupid fishin' out there in the desert in the sand, so I delay that until I'm at a time, place, and circumstance where there's some water at least to take it up and get a fish on the end of it, okay? So, that answer your question, okay? If I want to drive my car and I find that it's sittin' out in the woods somewheres, I delay it until such time as I'm on a decent road to drive on and so on. Simple Simon was – no, who was the guy that went fishin' in a pail of water? Was that Simple Simon?
(No.)
Who was it?
(Fishing in a pail of water?)
Yeah, he wanted to go fishin’ so he went fishin’ in a pail of water. He wasn't willing to wait for time, place and circumstance.
(Simple Simon met a pie man.)
Yeah I know he met a pie man. Somebody went fishin' in a bucket of water just to catch a whale, too.
(That's right, to catch a whale.)
That's the only thing he went for, he wanted to catch a whale; so he found a bucket of water and put a hook in there to catch one.
(He did it, that's right.)
Is that who it was?
(I think it’s Simple Simon.)
I think it probably was. So then time, place and circumstance determines one's activity, would you not say? Time, place, and circumstances determines one's activity in some cases. I can respond to one. Certain things you can't do in certain places – you have to wait until they come along, until an occasion presents itself. Then you can get across a certain piece of material. It was like the king said that the people who have taught these kind of classes were sometimes teaching different materials – they couldn't agree, so it must all be a bunch of junk. And so the teacher said, "Well, under the proper occasion, I will try to demonstrate to you – I'm not gonna try to tell you about it." So a few weeks later an occasion occurred and he said to all the king…and have all of his knights line up on one side of the street and bleachers, and have all the ladies and high court officials line up on the other side. And so then he marched through a group of students in full dress costume. And then he asked the king to ask the knights what they saw, and they said they saw a bunch of guys come through with brown suits on. And he asked the ladies what they saw, and they said they saw a bunch of guys come through with white suits on. And the king was so upset he was about to behead everbody until the old guy went and got somebody and said, "Now I waited until this occasion because I couldn't get it across any other way to you. So he turned the guy around and he had a suit split down the middle and this side was brown and this side was white. So as long as they all marched single file, that's what everybody saw. So you have to have a time, place, and circumstance to show why that – under time, place and circumstances – different instructors in the art of the Teaching would say something differently because they're teaching at a time, place and circumstance a little different. I’ve had people say, "Well, so and so told me something different." Sure it was a different time, place and circumstance. It was coverin’ a specific point at that time. 'Course my favorite story of all time is the story of the Emperor's New Clothes and I hope everybody knows it.
(Sure.)
I have a cartoon on the wall, which has been blown up and processed through some of the nice equipment that is well printed, that is a beautiful story. And you're readin’ the sign on the front door from the inside says "Emperor's New Clothes," you know, kind of backward, narrow style. And there's rows and rows of beautiful racks down each side of the store with empty coat hangers on it – Emperor's New Clothing Company. (laughter) Now you see the story that was told about the Emperor's New Clothes emphasizes the gullibility of human beings that believe in unusual powers. You know the…you remember that story, honey? The weavers had unusual powers. They had the power to weave cloth of the finest quality that a person who was not fit for his position couldn't see.
(Sure, and he went naked all the time.)
So some little boy around named Bob, standin' on the corner hollered, "The King ain't got no clothes on!" (laughter) And his dad tried to shut him up.
(Bob, this God with Creation – like the Bible, I want you to –)
You wanna talk about Creation? Neal said he was gonna bring a book in one day this week and we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna take the book while we do it, okay?
(Okay.)
(Would you talk about hypnotism, hypnosis and black magic versus –)
Nah, I don't know anything about black magic, I'm such a white guy myself – I can't get involved in that.
(Would you talk about hypnotism?)
I'll talk about hypnosis a little bit 'cause that I do – am well acquainted with, okay? Hypnosis is the art, of either to yourself or another, of putting a person in an altered state of consciousness. It is done by repetition, by fascination, by fatigue, by half a dozen other methods. And usually there is two methods of doing hypnosis – covert and overt. In overt hypnosis, it's said we're going to run an experiment in so-and-so and we're gonna hypnotize you and etcetera. The covert one says that we're doin' somethin' else entirely; and of course, there is far more covert hypnosis goes on in the world than there is overt. And in hypnosis, there is first the attempt to put the Awareness to sleep, totally.
(In covert?)
All of it – any of it. You put the Awareness to sleep or in a state of suspended being where it is no longer critical; and this opens the door for the operator to speak directly to the Awareness that it will feel any way you tell it to. Now this is in varying degrees. The first stage of hypnosis is called the alpha level where the person is merely in a state of relaxation, slightly heightened suggestibility. And you increase this until you come to full somnalistic stage of hypnosis, which is complete, and you're in total contact, control of the person's feeling. You can tell him to feel any way you want to, verbally or non-verbally, and they will act upon it. You don't even have to make it verbally. If you have worked with the person three or four times, you can merely see him off out here in the parking lot and you run certain things through your head and he will do exactly as you tell him to; and if you went and asked him why he's doing it, he would say, “Well it just occurred to me to do it.”
(Would you say that again? You could think something? Or you would say something?)
You relate to him non-verbally. Once you – now, you can't do this unless you have had the person as a subject several times.
(But you're not getting through?)
No, he doesn't even see you.
(Do you do it by establishing a point of contact with him?)
No, he's way off out there in the field. You have just established that he will do whatever you think for him to do – non-verbally, he will do it. Yeah. Yes?
(He doesn't have to be a willing participant?)
Not after the first time – no, he never did even have to be in the first place 'cause that’s your covert.
(You can do the covert without ever having an opening at all?)
Right without the person ever knowin’ about it.
(There was a movie, an old movie on television about someone who was hypnotized and committed some murders. And the idea in the field is that even though you go under hypnosis, you will never do anything that you would not do otherwise.)
May I correct that? I could give you the subject of justification – if I didn't give him a justification, he'd probably come out of the hypnotic trance, right. If I said to somebody, I hypnotized the little lady here and I said, "Go over there and steal Gaye's purse," she probably wouldn't – she’d come out of it. But I would go a little further if I wanted to do this and I would say, “You’re going…Gaye has some government secrets stashed in her purse and she's gonna give them to a foreign agent and we've got to get them.” Gaye's purse is gone because I gave her a justification. If I said, “You will have to kill Joan because Joan is going to destroy everthing that you hold dear and the only way you can salvage it is to destroy that little witch,” she'll get you – she'll go after you. Huh?
(That's new to me. I didn't think that that was possible.)
You can give the justification – if you do not give a justification, it won't. You see, there is a lot of misinformation rattled around about the whole subject. But you can put the justification in and go. Russ?
(If I recall, I think one time you saying that you thought that hypnosis was a form of violence.)
I would still continue to say so – like hittin' you in the head with a rubber mallet – knockin' you out and then takin’ over.
(Now – I'm not speaking in the proper terminology, Bob, don’t know what it might be – is that because of black magic connotation? Is that because –)
No, it's because I'm takin’ a person's free agency away from 'em and supplanting it with mine and I'm controlling 'em just as much as if I had chains on 'em – even more so.
(What about self-hypnosis? Is this because of the usurping of the – of X?)
Well, no, you're not changin X; I'm just talkin’ to X instead of lettin’ him do it. I'm sayin’ what goes to X instead of him doin' it and I think that each one of us is responsible for our own. I one time practiced hypnosis and I was a very good operator and I will not do it anymore – period; because I am taking everthing and controlling that person as though I had chains and bindings and everthing. And once I've got him there, I can say that, “Whenever I snap my finger…” or “Whenever I think the word ‘soap’ you will go into this condition,” or any other word I so do choose and he will do it. And that takes that person totally away from any free agency of existence from now on. And I've got enough trouble bein’ responsible for Robert, not somebody else.
(This also becomes a judgment function.)
Oh yeah, I judged what I thought ought to be.
(A judgment function.)
Right, and I don't want no part of it.
(But what if – do you use hypnosis to bring back early memories to someone who’s suffering from a trauma in some past period?)
Go ahead.
(Isn't that a justification for using it?)
Honey, I can find a justification to do anything including chop your feet off – that doesn't mean I want to do it. No, I feel it's a subject that I don't wanna do anything. I didn't say that nobody else should want to – they can all do it all they want to. I'm not going to, okay? I just don't wanna do it anymore. ‘Cause I can see nothing except that it would…not only what it does to the other person. You see, it gives you a great sense of power and you do have power, okay?
(I don't use hypnosis – I don't believe in it.)
Well, I know, but I said I would have power and I did have power. And the more you have power, the more you're tempted to use it and I'm a weakling. I even have to drink weak coffee and I'm a weakling, can't stand temptation. One more up here and I'll be back there, Russ. Did you have your hand up or have you forgotten...?
(No, you almost answered it. I'm not hypnotizing my little girl when she couldn't sleep, I just relax her body and she –)
Oh well, that's altogether different – relaxation, and pettin' her – you can pet me and I'll go to sleep, too. (laughter) Russ?
(We were on the word power –)
Um hum.
(I see power as being used quite a bit, Bob.)
Right, but not unconsciously. I wouldn't take advantage of 'em. The power that the other person has no ability to turn down when he's hypnotized – it is all…all put together.
(But I thought I heard you – but I may be wrong – say you wouldn't use power. You meant –)
No I said hypnosis. I said I wouldn't use hypnosis because it was too much power and I'm a weaklin’ and liable to be tempted by it.
(Excuse me; I transferred it to something else. I'm sorry.)
No, I said hypnosis I wouldn't use. No, you want to use power; you couldn’t turn your car around if you didn't have power.
(Even if we asked you for a specific purpose, you wouldn't use it.)
No, I'll do it some other way. I'll do whatever your purpose is, but don't try to tell me how to do it and don't tell me…don’t ask me for hypnosis ‘cause I won't do it. Yes?
(Is there value in –)
I did it for 20 years and that's long enough.
(Is there value in self-hypnosis – you know?)
Well, it is to the people who sell you the know-how. (laughter) Yes, dear?
(What about something like biofeedback – like the machines that they're using now. Is that the same kind of –)
No, that’s not hypnosis. That's just teachin’ you to hypnotize yourself until you get yourself in the alpha stage, which is the first stage of hypnosis. And then she asked if it had any value in it and it does – for the people who are sellin’ the machines and so forth. Yes? Yeah?
(I went to the dentist with hypnosis ‘cause that's about the only way I could go. You know, I've always thought it was really – it was a valuable thing for me 'cause when I have to go to the dentist now, I have a really nice time.)
Sure, I do too and I'm not hypnotized. I always have a nice time.
(How’d you do it?) (laughter)
I have a nice time. I go to the dentist now; I always enjoy that. It's kind of like goin’ to have your hair cut. You know, that's nice. You like to go to the barber have your hair…or the beautician and have your hair worked over and stuff?
(Um hum.)
Same difference – having your feet worked on similar way – if you just get it in your head what it's like. If you go down there, “It's gonna hurt me…” I've seen kids scream and yell because they was put in the barber chair. But I enjoy havin’ my hair kind of played with and my teeth played with and my back rubbed and my toenails manicured and my fingernails manicured, don't you? When you can get it where you can see what it is, it all works out the same way. So havin’ your teeth worked on is very much like having a manicure.
(Okay.)
Except you don't see it that way.
(And that buzzing noise.)
Well, I've had a manicurist use little electric files – and they buzz.
(I heard something at a dental convention that you might be interested in. There were about a thousand dentists there, one of them worked with acupuncture, but that's with a needle. If you press your hand here, right in here, this controls the right side of your face and here is the left side. I did it. When my dentist was doing my teeth, I tried it and I had no pain and he didn't give me any Novocain because I hate Novocain – I don't like to be punctured. I don't like the aftereffects of Novocain. But by doing that – now if that was a form of self-hypnosis, I don't know.)
(Did you hold it – the whole time?)
(Uh-huh, and I even fell asleep. That was something unusual.)
Who held it after you fell asleep? (laughter)
(It wasn’t… I mean, I was without pain. So, pain is an illusion, I think.)
Well, not necessarily; but a lot of pain like havin’ your teeth cleaned or a dentist work on your teeth and such – that’s in your mind.
(I felt the energy level just go out of this room when you started talking about hypnosis.)
Yeah.
(It's just drained.)
Because everbody started wanting to get a little power.
(Really? I'm having trouble keeping my eyes open.)
Yeah, that's a subject that has nothing to do with Teaching, but I'm free to talk about it.
(Would you talk about energy levels?)
We'll talk on that later.
(I'm really interested in people's energy levels.)
So hypnosis is like all these things, it's – like, well, you start talkin’ about astrology and all that kind of stuff, it'll do the same thing.
(Why? It’ll pull the energy? Why?)
It seems to… Hello, John. How are you? Come in, have a chair. Oh yeah, it'll do that. Question, comment?
(Why will it do that?)
Oh, don't ask me why.
(Why not?) (laughter) (It didn't happen to me, I didn't feel anything.)
(What was the third level?)
Third level of what?
(Hypnosis – you got to the second one.)
Oh no, I gave you the last one – the first and the last one – you know there's just spaces in between there, not particularly named. They’re just you get the person deeper and deeper and deeper where you can do things. Now, in the fourth one, they're totally where they will do anything you tell them. You can stick a needle right through their arm and pull it out and say it will heal up or you can take a big knife and make a cut and tell it to heal instantly and it’ll heal instantly.
(Why would the body have the power to do that under hypnosis and not when not hypnotized?)
Well, I asked a lady under it one time, “Read through lead plates,” and she said, "Well, you damn fool, I know I can't do it when I'm awake."
(So, if you know you can do something, you can do it?)
Yeah, but let's see you know how to do it.
(You can't hypnotize me.) (laughter)
I know. You see confidence is the first requisite before you can do anything. You have to be confident you can stand up before you get up. And the confidence you can write before you write a letter down. And if you don’t have confidence, you can’t do certain things. And when you are knocked out, why somebody else can say that you have it and there is no question of you having it. You’re totally gone. So if you can ever convince yourself that you could – that you were confident, which you have to be in a very high state of being such as extreme enthusiasm almost to the point of ecstasy where you could do it, then you could say, “I will heal this cut instantly,” and it will. Whatever you say in that state is true, okay? And hypnosis is a violent way of coming up on the same thing, but you couldn't duplicate it at all. Even though you could read through a lead plate while you was in that state, as soon as you weren't in that state you couldn't read it, so what is the value of it, you know? It's just somebody played some tricks on us. But if you ever get so that you are confident enough to know that you could read through a lead plate, then you may do so without being in any altered state of consciousness other than that you raised your inner feeling to a very high level, okay? That's all. You don't need hypnosis and all that stuff. You can do everthing that can be done under that if you will increase, take the responsibility of increasing your inner feeling to a certain level, and then everthing you say under that level is true.
(How do you do that? Increase the Awareness to a level?)Continued............
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