Workshop - Santa Ana, CA School – 1977 - Page 11 of 12

Note from proofreaders:  Marsha does the original transcribing from cassette tapes or CD’s and we do the final proofreading.  We strive to give as close a verbatim transcript as possible, so that this can be a companion to the audio files found in the “Links” section.  We work to retain Dr. Bob’s interesting vernacular.  If you knew the man, not correcting his grammar and laid back “Kentucky-ese” makes reading it sound like he’s actually talking.  He’d say “everone” for “everyone”; or “somewheres” instead of “somewhere”, and many more…all part of his dialect of which we’ve tried to remain true.  Notations have been added where there was audience (laughter), which was quite often.  He was a master at keeping the mood up! 
(Audience participation is contained in parenthesis. )
Any emphasized word is in italics.
[ Any clarifications for the reader in regards to Dr. Bob’s references, words, or actions have been italicized inside brackets. ]      

Continued from page 10:

– it makes you want to lay down.  Otherwise you'd just keep on runnin' while you didn’t do it.  You see, you give cortisone and you had pneumonia, and it counteracts DOCA and you'd just feel fine and fall dead out there on the floor when you just sort of 5:16 (unclear).  Ok, DOCA is the antithesis of cortisone and it makes you want to lay down.  It's what the feelin' you just got to lay down when you get the measles, chicken pox, mumps –all those good things – that you say,  “I just gotta lay down.”  Because one time I had an experimental little infinitesimal amount of it injected to my arm and I couldn't get laid down fast enough and after I got laid down, I wasn't laid down enough. (laughter)  I needed to lay down some more. (laughter) That's the way it works.  And you’ve generated yourself, every time you feel sorry for yourself, you make you a little gob of it.

(And you get used to this and then you –)

And you get so that you … well, you're hooked to it.  I don’t know whether anybody enjoys anything they're addicted to, but you can't do without it.

(Mm-hmm.)

You get addicted to your DOCA charge; and you'll notice that you'll do it about the same time ever day. 

(Yeah.  I've found that three-thirty, four I get kinda… yeah.)

Yeah… so you can go feelin’ sorry for yourself.  “Here I went all day ‘til this time of day and I haven't had any fun and nobody has pursued me,” or anything of the sort and blah.  Or if you worked, well you had to work too hard and too long and if you didn't work, you was bored.

(There's always something.)

There's somethin' for you to feel sorry for yourself about ever afternoon about three o'clock, is that right?

(Right.  Right, right.)

Somebody else wakes up at five-thirty and has to have a cigarette, ok?  Before they can get goin'.  Somebody else at five-thirty in the afternoon's gotta have a martini, right now.  Any interference is gonna get you bopped out of their way right quick, hmm?  And you're gonna get your DOCA charge at 3:30 ever afternoon. 

(I guess I should just choose it that something I can't –)

I don't know what you should do, love.

(Ok.)

You can do whatever you want to, but please don't "should" it in there.

(Don't what?)

Don't "should" it in there.

(Oh, don't "should" it.)

You know, you "should" …

(Oh, right.)

… do so and so, you know.  You wasn't listenin' to what's comin' out of there.  Start listening to both ends of the conversation – very interesting.  You know what you have to say is just as interesting as what anybody else has to say.  It's really worthwhile to listen to both ends – of any conversation.  What you say, how you say it, what they say, how they say it.  Very enlightening.  Ok, questions, comments?  Yes?

(You get off of DOCA by joining an organization called DOCA's Anonymous.) (laughter)

Yeah, (laughter) Say that all real fast. 

(Three o'clock every day and –) (laughter)

DOCA's anonymous. (laughter)  You didn't listen to anything, ok? You got anything extra?

(No.)

Okay.  Yes, Judy?

(I want to hear the story about Vi.)  (Vi gasps)

Well, she'll tell you about it anytime.

Vi says, (Some other time.) 

I just told it to you, (laughter) unabridged, straight out of the book; but unembellished.  Now we could embellish the fool out of it if you want to.  But you would never believe that some time ago Vi was a poor little grey woman all humped over [Bob talks in a woebegone voice] waiting to die and be carried away to the celestial kingdom where all would be bright. (laughter)

(Is that how I say –)

She found out she could make one though and she'd have more fun makin' it than she did going to it. 

(How come the celestial kingdom?)

Well, you'll have to ask Vi about that.

(You have to belong to the church that I belong to.)

That's what I said, you have to pick the right one.

(Yes.)  (I'd like to hear him talk.) (laughter)

Yes, dear?

(What does that mean to be a butterfly?)

Well, look at Miss Vi.

Vi says, (Follow me around.) (laughter)

Follow it.  She flits from flower to flower and place to place, from nectar to nectar, ok?

(If a doctor tells you that you have some terminal disease – I don't mean our normal one that we're all born – can you either decide to believe him or not believe him?)

Well, what are you doing down there talking to him in the first place? (laughter)

(Yes.)

Well, I would disagree… I always look at it … so one of those cats laid that on my folks, you know.  I was a guy about 14 …13, 14 years old and he very carefully called them in the back room and left the door open and said that I would never live to get through high school; and that I wouldn't make it another year, he didn't think.

(What was the reason?)

Hmm?

(What reason?)

I went to see the doctor.  (hilarious laughter)

So you know what went through this reprobate's head [meaning himself]?  You wanna hear?

(Yes.)  (I'll show him, right?)

That son of a bitch, I'll see his funeral!  I'm not gonna kick off.  I'm gonna watch his funeral – and I got to go to his funeral.  It's the only one I ever went to since my folks quit draggin' me to ‘em.  I went to his.

(What did he say was wrong with you?)

I was gonna die.  I had a fatal disorder.

(No, what – but what was the reason?)

Huh?

(What was the reason?  Were you sick with something?)

Oh, I guess so, my folks thought I was or they wouldn't have me down there.  Yeah?  Supposedly my heart would quit beatin'.

(A broken bone is a mechanical thing?)

That's right, that is a trauma, not an illness. A trauma, a broken bone he said … that's a trauma.

(What about amoebic dysentery?)

Well, that's a invasionary force from the environment.  We say there is environmental stresses.

(What was the question?)

Amoebic dysentery.  That's when you got a bunch of little moebies. (laughter)

(Mobies?)

(Bob?)

Huh?

(If the invasion force gets a foothold, which seems to be likely in most cases –)

Yeah, the person is “down in the dumpies” and somebody else can drink water out of the same little …

(What's the most expedient cure?)

That's the most expedient, is to ...

(Get back on your –)

… get back on your feet again if you can.

(Keep going.)

(Is that an illness, amoebic dysentery?)

Amoebic dysentery?  Well, I wouldn't say it's an illness.  It's a name of a diarrhea when you got some amoebas, ok?

(What do you call it?)

Nothin'. (laughter)

Come around I'll let you in on it sometime.  So if you can kick 'em out … so there's a number of ways to get it; one of 'em would be various and sundry medications that makes amoebas sick and don't overly sicken the person, the host.  And there is others to raise the person's state of well-being so they [the amoebas] became groggy.  You see, first of all these little critters like germs and etc. cannot grow on live, healthy tissue.  If it did, we'd all be dead cause we're all covered with germs all the time. So they have to catch us in a time when our so-called resistance is low.  Then when we are stressed from environment, inner feeling, activity, nutrition, the body is functioning far below optimum and then it's like havin’ a good breeding place for 'em.  They can set up housekeepin’ and start raising a family there.  And what makes us feel terrible is not their presence, but the fact that they use our either serous circulation or our blood stream for their sanitary disposal system.  And the toxin they throw off as their waste product is what gives us the fevers, the diarrheas, the pains, the acheys, all these many things.  And course the best thing is to keep yourself in such a decided state of well being that no germ can get a place to start growin'.  You gotta have sick or unhealthy tissue cells for them to even start growin’ in.  They're like buzzards.  Now you can have live healthy cows out there in the field and the buzzards flyin’ overhead all day long never harm 'em.  But you let the cow get very sick or dyin’ and the buzzards come in droves and when she dies, they eat her up.  And that's … a buzzard is a kind of a visible germ, but he doesn't bother anything as long as it's alive and healthy, ok?

(Was this six above, seven above or eight above on yesterdays scale?)  [refers to Tone Scale]

Seven.  Bugs just don't bother you when you get up there.

(Ok.)

They flat don't have a chance, unless there is a trauma and make a big cut and left a dirty wound.  If you have a clean wound it'll heal up very, very quickly.  And you can have the person with all the bugs around ‘em and everbody else comes down with somethin' and somebody's walkin' on as unconcerned as you please.  'Cause they are all healthy tissue and there's no place for it to go.  So you got to have sick tissue in order for the bacteria to have a place to germinate.  Otherwise they're … we're covered with 'em all the time.  Breathe great gobs of 'em with every gulp of air we get.

(If we get – if we realize that we have a level of seven, we don't need health insurance then anymore, do we?) (laughter)

I went up the street awhile ago to buy a airplane ticket back to El Paso and a little girl said, "You don't want health insurance … you don't want flight insurance, do you?" She couldn't quite get it out, could she?  She tried but some way it just wouldn't ring a bell for her that I wouldn’t buy insurance to cover the flight.  So fine.  The state wouldn't reap $100,000 in case the plane crashes.  She couldn't quite get it out; she's supposed to ask it of everbody, but she couldn't quite get it out to me … for some reason or another.  Yeah?

(What about the accidents?  Somehow it seems to me that in a high state of well-being that you would attract less accidents, like you attract –)

Well, obviously you don't attract accidents, but you would be aware enough to avoid more of 'em.

(Oh, ok.  Anything happen, you recover faster.)

All right, definitely.  If you did get a cut or break it goes together very rapidly.  We do get scratches and cuts and so forth.  Yeah?

(Well this is dumb one, but do you feel at all accidents are avoidable?)

Are avoidable?  No … no, there's no such thing as unavoidable accidents.  When two guys come around the corner, each one drivin' 90 miles an hour and there's only 18 feet in between the two cars and there's no two lanes there it's kind of like when an irresistible force meets and immovable object, there's gonna be x-rays produced.

(Well, you seem to justify that by saying that those judgments is not exercised, therefore –)

Well, I said in many cases.  She said … I didn't say at all.  I said if a person was more aware, she said they'd have less accidents.  Is that right, Joan?  Didn't say no accidents.

(I guess I should ask what an accident really is?)

I don't know. 

(Come off of that point.) (Yeah.)

I told … they told me that an accident was somethin' that nobody could foresee, not even the prophet, seer or revelator. (laughter)

(Revelator?)

Maybe he couldn't foresee it, and that's an accident.  And that's very little he can foresee, so most anything we wasn't expectin' would probably be referred to as an ac - sa - dent.  Ok?  Now, you know, and I don't see any reason to get … there's a lot of people very accident prone and a lot of people aren't.  Now accident prone people, if you will observe them, are usually rattled in the head and they're not payin’ any attention to where they are and so they bang themselves around quite a bit and it's … I don't know whether accident or just unaware. Yeah, Joan?

(What about people that kind of have accidents to give them something to complain about?  It's something – I'm not sure I'm using the right words.)

Well, I know some people who have accidents in order to draw insurance claims.  I do know some people who earn their living that way.

(I'm not – I'm talking about the person who doesn't think they're doing anything on purpose.)

Oh well … 

(– so if I have a certain accident – so they can go on about "poor me".)

See if you walk around about three fourths out of it, feelin’ sorry for yourself and how terrible you're treated, you'll probably have a few more accidents than somebody who's interested in what they're doin’.  But there is people who just make a business out of havin’ accidents.  They learn to be hit by cars so they're really...

(– alive but can collect.)

Well, you see we really get to be like carnival or circus performers. They know how to be hit.  They're like stuntmen in Hollywood.  They know how to be hit and they can produce all these terrible lookin’ symptoms and get photographs and they're not really hurt very much and they collect tremendous amounts of money.  Yes, Russell?

(We actually saw a woman in Italy throw her child into the side of a car in order to have an accident.)

Yeah, yeah, 'cause she needed a … she needed some extra loot or something you see.  And they do know it really is a trade and it's taught to people. There's guys who teach you how to get a horrible lookin' injury without very much pain or discomfort and they'll be all right and no injury to yourself really, only visible.  Yes?

(How about talking about the control of physical pain?)

Ok.  Control of physical pain is most often done with medication, which usually don't always work.  And I found that there is also, if you want to, you can take a finger and block off a nerve line and stop pain better than most medications can.

(Yeah, right.)

Good! (laughter)

(I did it.)

There are several other ways.  And the other one is that the person is really free to experience pain, you find that it ceases to be so severe.  In fact if I'm free to experience pain (so who am I that I shouldn't have a little discomfort or a big discomfort now and then and one is not fighting it) that the pain intensity is experienced as dropping about 90%.  You been there?  When you're free to experience the pain, ok?  But most of us aren't even free to experience the remotest discomfort, much less pain.  Right, honey? 

(It's true.)

We throw a ring-tailed fit over a very insignificant little discomfort. 

(Physical pain seems to be easier to deal with than –)

Than those kinds you have. (laughter)  Good Lord.

(strong foreign accent)  (Bob, I'm still with this question with people would cause accident and they do it to collect money.)

Mm-hmm.

(strong foreign accent)  (Uhhh, how X react to it?)

How does X do it?

(strong foreign accent) (No, how X react to the accident?  X – you know – to the people who are trained to do it.)

How are they trained to do it?

(strong accent) (No, they train to collect money.)

All right, true.

(woman has a very strong foreign accent) (How X react?  If it's not cause and effect that they don't have to pay the price.)

Oh, they pay the price.  But they just manage to get hit just a little bit over here so you know, you get a little bruise here and it's all black and blue, but they didn't break themselves up.  And so, you know for a little black and blue, they collect three thousand, four thousand dollars… “for the carelessness of the driver,” is what they usually do.  They’re particularly careful, or like to have very fine lookin' cars or taxi cabs.  Yeah? 

(I think you mean (referring to lady with accent) that isn't there some punishment for doing that?)

(Yeah, that's what she meant –) (Yes.) (Like retribution for –)

Oh, you know, if she don't get caught, no, anymore than anything else there is.  Good Lord says if you think it's all right, it's ok.  You got to justify…

(If you justify it, it's ok.)

If it's justified to you, why he's not gonna tell you you did wrong.  You know people that always wantin' to have God come around and even all the …. even all the things up.  He don't do that. 

(You don't pay for your crimes in other words?  That doesn't mean I go around expecting –)

Well that's all according … I know an awful lot of people. Did you pay for your crimes, honey?

(Pay for your what?  I don't know what crimes –)

Huh?  I don't know whether anybody pays for 'em or not.

(I think that's what her question was.)  (Yeah.)

No, I don't …I don't think so.  I think that's one they laid on you to scare you into bein’ good when you was a kid, don't you?  They tried to teach you to be good when you was little, didn’t they?  Ok?  And so they told you if they didn't catch you why an almighty seeing eye in the sky would catch you and get you, hmm?  He'd watch you and make one mark, two marks, three marks, four marks.  Now you've had it, five and you've had it.  Well if you can get by with it, you get by with it, ok?   I wouldn't know what the punishment would be.  I don't think you get punished for bein’ a con artist.  You know I think everbody's kind of amused whether they know it or not.  It’s a good workable scam, [Bob chuckles] don't you, Russ?  I think even the Lord's amused by one of those, [Bob chuckles] a good workable scam.

What's the matter, honey?

(Nothing.)

Ok.  What'cha talkin' about?

(What am I talkin' about?  Inside?)

Yeah.

(Oh, that.) (laughter)

That, uh-huh.  What's “A” and “B” talkin' about?

(I have to think about it. I can't just –)  

Ok, let me know later.

(All right.)

Ok.  Suppose we drop it off until the in the mornin'?  You want to make it ten or ten-thirty in the mornin’?  Either one's fine with me.  Ten-thirty, does that get everybody here better?

(Ok, yeah.)

Ok, ten-thirty.

[We hear the tail end of a discussion with a participant, then he begins.]

Let's talk about something that we all do most of the time and a lot of times we don't even aware we're doin'.  So let's say that the unconscious person or sleepin' … whatever you want to call it. [Bob begins writing on the blackboard]  Some of you say you're sleeping is the person who is at that moment is unaware of placing values.  You see, about everthing that we come up on, we value it one way or the other.  And most of us without being really conscious of it, allow old values, maybe from even childhood, to work.  You know, we looked yesterday at the Four Dual Basic Urges, which is a childhood value and is still carrying it around.  It never did stop to make a new one.  And then the complaining is a nice childhood value as a way to get things so we value our complaining.  We value stickin’ up for rights, etc.  Now the conscious person is not something that you had a sudden blow on the head and bright lights went sparklin' out and stars and everthing.  A conscious person is one that places values knowingly for now.  Knows what to use for values now.  So neither do we get one where we have two values at the same time.  We would have both values, but one of 'em for second place.  Like our little friend, where is she this mornin' that – Debbie, isn't it? – that wants to have…

(She's at a meeting, she's gonna be here.)

She's gonna be here?  Well, we'll tell her again when she gets here.  So she has value, which she really didn't make herself, to have a companion.  But she has another value not to take a chance on gettin' hurt.  So then if you put both of those values of equal value at this moment, you can't do anything, hmm?  You can do nothing.  But if I could take it and put one value of first value – would be to have the companion – and the second value not to get hurt, you know, it might work real well because she'd watch how the association went off, wouldn't she?  You could have both of 'em.  So we can't unvalue something you really value.  Now you just don't have that ability if you really value something.  But you can put it in relationship to some other value. 

So number one we want to see what is first value [he writes it on the board] – to me.  That's what I really want, ok?  And then a second value which I'm gonna have too is what I want.  And I can put that off a little bit or I can put it in another spot or I might even make third values, and I might make fourth values and so forth.  But unless a person is conscious as to what … now if you tried to make two things that are mutually exclusive first value at the same moment, what would you do, Cici? 

(I usually hate them. I can't think –)

Well, you'd just get in a big conflict, wouldn't you?  But if you put one as first value, one as second value, one as third value, you could have 'em all three couldn't you?  Now if you had as first value you'd keep your money in the bank and the third value, a second value was to buy a new car or to take a trip to the Orient for New Year's, you couldn't quite do 'em both, huh?  But if you made the one to the Orient a first value and keepin your savings in good shape (as best as possible) second value, you could go to the Orient, ok?  Or you could turn it around the other way and you've made it more first value to keep your savings intact, you can go the Orient later.  So you have the trip to the Orient thenly and you have your money in the bank now, hmm?  But you do not consciously make values, you're constantly in some sort of a conflict.  Now if I want financial security but I want to have total freedom just to goof off, I don't want to be tied down.  Now if I make those of equal value, what'll happen?  You been through that one, Lauren, for instance, huh?

(Yeah.)

Which?  Did you put 'em in sequence – one first value, second value, third – or did you try to have 'em both at the same time for awhile?

(Yeah, for awhile.)

That's very frustrating isn't it?

(Yeah.)

Russell?

(Bob, first value always prevails on this; but you were talking yesterday like the x-ray thing, uh –)

When an irresistible force meets and immoveable object.

(So a first and second thing never meet, in the respect…if there is…what's the sort of conflict of the first and second thing?)

Well because you make 'em both first value.

(I know.  What's the result?  What's the x-ray?)

Total frustration and the body explodes in given due time.

(Same thing.)

Same principle.  An irresistible force meets an immoveable object, why it produces an explosion.  In a glass tube of a certain kind that makes x-rays.  Outside it makes rays that blows up.  You ever felt like you was just gonna blow up because you couldnt' go either way?

(Yes.)

You've done that quite frequently, haven't you?  So you and I were talkin’ about a little incident – somebody had offered you a opportunity of sorts and then you also had a like not to take on responsibility.

(Yes.)

Now which one's first value? Hello, Debbie.

(Hello.)

Hmm?

(To take on responsibility.)

And the second one is to let it be.  So you bluff a little bit, huh?

(Right.)

Ok.  So as long as it's second value you can go do the first one, but if you made 'em both … by things that just said well as long as you want 'em you have to have 'em both at the same time or at a same value, you couldn't move.

(It immobilizes me, I guess.)

Yeah, you wouldn't either take the opportunity or you wouldn't be satisfied not to take it.  You would be in a quandary over it.

(Yes.)

 Is that right?

(Yes.)

'Cause that's where people get what they call the “agony of decision”, is that the first thing we kind of sort out consciously our values.  That is a conscious person.  Now obviously I want all four of these, hmm?  But one of 'em I want of first value and the others I can put where I can get 'em later or maybe I can trade 'em off or do somethin’ else with 'em; but I can at least go ahead and do the one of first value, right? 

(Right.)

So it's not very difficult to find out what you want of first value is it, Barbara?

(Nope.)

If you ever stop to think of it.  Hmm?

(That's it.)

But ordinarily, “I want this, I want that, I want the other,” and I say, “I can't do both.”  So I would like to find out how to do them both.  Debbie, we had one for you just before you got here.

(I can imagine.) (laughter)

So the first … I thought you were here when I started.  What is first value and what is second value?  So first value we'll say is to [Bob writing on blackboard] have a companion, huh?  Ok?

(Uh huh.)

And the second value is not to get hurt.  That right?

(Right.)

Ok, now as long as they're this way, you can go ahead and have a companion and you would remember to be workin' then on your second value (not the first) and remember to be a sweet little lady – most of the time, huh? 

(That's boring.)

Huh?

(That's boring.)

Boring, well, then you could hurt him once in a while. (laughter)  I wonder if he ever thought about that, huh?

(That's more interesting.)

Well, all right, not to get hurt so I'll hurt him first. (laughter)  I can have it all.

(Nauseous.)

Huh?

(Right.)

I already hurt, but the first thing you want the companion so you have somebody to hurt, is that right?

(Right.)

Now then you can have everthing you want, you see; but it requires that we consciously establish what our values are.  Now if I want to be non-tied down, huh? (and that's my first value) then I'm not gonna get myself involved in something that's gonna keep me in one place for quite a while, right?  But if I count my money and see that, well otherwise even though I'm out wanderin’ around I don't have any way to have a living or enjoy it.  So maybe I will make it of first value to stay in one place and work pretty hard for six months, save my loot and then I'll be free for two years.  You could do both then, couldn't you?  Hmm?

(Yes.) 

Right?  Judy?

(It gets complicated on long-term kind of things.)

No we never do anything long-term.  Just today.

(No, I mean –)

What's first value today?

(Like you may have a value to be a professional or to work in a certain career, but that road may be very long and you don't want to pay that price.)

Well, then I wouldn't bother with it, would I?  I'd just mark it off and say, “Well I wouldn't pay that price.”  So in valuing, it’s seeing how much I'm willing to pay, is it not, Judy?  This is the way we put this up.  [he writes the following:]  “How much am I willing to pay?”  So we'll say that I come along some day and had a little flip go by says, “I'd like to be a millionaire,” huh?  And then I think about how much effort it's gonna take and I don't want it that much, hmm?  So if you go down and you see a lovely sports car and they want $18,000 for it, would you be willin’ to pay the price?  Maybe?  It's all according.  Now if you found a bargain, Gary, you'd travel halfway across the country to get it, is that right?.  Now you had a price you were willing to pay for a green car, right?

(That's right.)

But as long as it was the price that they usually ask for it, it was second value – you gonna have it thenly, that correct?

(That's absolutely right.)

But when you called a certain price on it, you got your nickels together and got it, no sweat, huh?

(None at all.)

Because this is what then became a first value.  But you determined before somethin's first value how much are you willing to pay for it.  As long as it was the usual price, it wasn't a first value.  But when you saw where you could have the dream car at a price that you felt was a pretty good lick then suddenly it became first value, is that right?

(Right.)

Now this is the way everthing in the world goes.  So how much am I willin’ to pay?  Now maybe I made it first value to get along with you, ok?  And the day you feel that you’ve got to have your fun and start kickin' and screamin' …  now I'm willin' to pay a certain price to be around you, beautiful one, but I'm not willing to pay that much.  And so I pulled my "I'm a movin' on."  Because there's only a certain price I would pay to be with you see, hmm?  Right?

(Right.)

Now I have a willingness to pay a certain price for about anything comes along.  If I walk in a store and I see a shirt I want and fine, I'm willin’ to pay the price, I look on the price tag.  But if I look and "ehh" I don't want this shirt now because it's no longer first value to me because they had $120 on there and my price was about $30, we'll say, hmm?  So I just leave it there, I don't want it.  Now as long as we, plus this … we do it fairly well in the world of merchandise and homes and farms and furniture and so forth; but in our interpersonal affairs there is a price to pay for everthing we have.  Now maybe I enjoy havin’ temper fits, you know.  That is it gives you a nice strong feeling for a few minutes to really get on up … "Psh, psh, psh, psh!"  … tell 'em all off.  For a little bit it feels real good.  But I don't like the end result of it so I'm not willing to pay the price to afford temper fits, hmm?  I just don't want to pay that price.  Now we have things called emotions: anger, guilt, fear, insecurity.  Most of us have had 'em one time or another, hmm?  And there's nothin' wrong with havin' 'em, but I've found the price is more than I choose to pay.  So I don't have 'em.  You know, if you see you cannot afford something or you cannot pay … you don't want to pay for it, do you ever get it? 

(No.)

You don't go down to the store and pay more than you want to pay for somethin’, do you?

(No.)

Huh? That correct?   Would you like to, do you feel comfortable in paying the price that you have to pay for having an emotion?  Anger, guilt, fear, insecurity, all these scenes that we have – do you enjoy paying for that?  How about you, Debbie?

(No.)

You don't wanna pay it.  Now if you don't wanna pay for it, you don't get it, is that right?  Now if you think that you can afford it or you're unconscious of your value system, you're liable to have it before you got through paying.  Like somebody that's met by a salesman and the person doesn't understand sales techniques and they buy something and they get out the door and they wonder why I bought that, hmm?  Hello!

(Hi!)

Where you been all day?

(Gaddin’ about.)

Gaddin’ about.  Come up and have a chair.  We saved your chair here for you so you can get hooked in there and sit down.

(Terrific.)

Good.  Everbody treats you so terrifically, don't they? 

(It looks like it.)

So the moment that I see that I am not interested in paying the price for the few minutes kick I get out of havin’ anger, guilt, fear, insecurity, havin’ a scene with somebody; I don't have 'em anymore.  Would you, Debbie?

(No.)

Or do you still get caught at it?

(Occasionally.)

How about you, dear?

(Occasionally.)

Can you afford havin’ those things or do you want to pay for 'em.

(No.)

You came in the other day with one.  Was you enjoyin’ what you was having to pay for it?  Now there's no way out of paying for 'em.  You bought it and so you have to pay for it, ok?  The debts never cancelled for you.  So you paid for it with what, about 18, 20 hours of "Blech," huh?

(Right.)

You want to pay that anymore.

(No!)

Then you wouldn't have it because you won't buy it anymore 'cause there's nobody forces you to date, does it?

(Yeah.)

Only you can generate a powerful feeling like anger, guilt, fear, insecurity.  I can't have it for you, hmm?  That right?  And if you see that you can't afford it, would you ever have it anymore or that you can afford it maybe.  It'll only cost you your life, but you have that to expend on it, don't ya?

(Mm-hmm.)

Is it worth it?

(No.)

Or would you rather not pay that much?

(I don't want to pay that much.)

Then you won't buy it anymore, would you?

(Yeah.)

Ok.  How much you wanna pay for havin’ a scene?  You don't want to pay for it?

(Nothing.)

Then there's no way that anybody could insist upon you having one, is it?

(No.)

They can try to sell it to you, but you don't have to buy it, do you? 

(Nope.)

You have to buy any of 'em?  No way, huh? 

(No way.)

Sir?

(Umm.)

I heard you fightin' with me there, so come on.

(No, no, no, I'm not fighting.  No just – does everything have a price?)

Yep, sure does.  Everything's got a price tag on it.  You can't always read it, but it's there.  Somehow you just have to say, high price if you buy it.  It's like Hewlett Packard products are high priced and so you know you're gonna have to pay a lot when you want to pay for it.

(It's like you have a body and the Host has all this stuff laid out and you have Monopoly money that you can pick it up if you want to.)

Right.  And if you don't want to buy it, you don't have to, do you?  But everything's got a price tag on it; even well-being has a price tag.  You see some of the things like … say I had an ulcer, I'm just payin' for my fun back there havin’ a lot of resentment along the line.  Would you feel it was worth it?  You don't have to buy it, but you're free to buy it, ok?  What about that, Ceci?

(You're right.)

So are you. (laughter)  Payin’ prices is sometimes kinda high when you get the bill, isn't it, Judy? 

(Yeah.)

But they always send the bill, don't they?  You always get the bill and then we fuss about paying the bill. 

(You know, Bob, in human relations, anytime there's intimacy or you're involved with anybody over time, there's always conflict.  And sometimes when I listen to you I hear that it's the first storm that comes up, you walk out the door.)

Well, that's not right 'cause I prevent storms.  I build a lot of windbreaks.  I have found how to prevent storms in association with other people.  You want to hear about it?

(Yeah.) (Yeah.)  (laughter)

Well I do try to demonstrate it a little bit around once in a while.  When I see somebody havin' a storm, I generally go over and build a windbreak around it, ok?  Could you have a windbreak, would it be a windbreak… could you throw up a storm if you're being treated very, very nicely and appreciated and so forth, Eileen?

(Yeah.  Can I throw up a storm?)

Yeah, if you felt like throwin' storm at me anytime.  I've treated you kind of nicely and appreciated your company and your appearance and so forth all the time you're here, is that right?

(That's right.)

And you haven't felt inclined to have a storm and scream at me or anything?

(No, not at all.)

Right.  How about you, Cici?  You been treated all right?

(That's right.)

How about you, Reilly?

(Oh just fine.)

You been treated all right.  How about you, Jeanette?

(Just fine.)

You been treated all right, you haven't had a storm.  Now if I'm gonna go around stickin' up for my rights and demanding and so forth yeah, there's gonna be a lot of storms blow off of the North Pole down over the plains and kick up a big dust storm and a norther blows in and we have all kinds of commotion, Judy.  But I have learned to build windbreaks around and so I keep my windbreaks up and nobody fusses with me.  Believe that or not.

(Bob, if we were living together and you were off going around the country most of the year and I saw you just a few weeks out of the year, I might put up a storm or have some expectation that you spend time with me.)

I hear that little storm, but I've …

(Yeah.)

… put up quickies because I buy em' pretty things like a Lilly Ann suit or a nice diamond or some other pretty thing, that's a pretty good windstorm.  It slows it down naturally … (laughter) slows it down once in a while.  But basically I kid about being gone.  I am around wherever I want to be pretty much of the time, ok?  And if you were treated real, real nice while you were … anybody was around you, you probably wouldn't create too many storms.  And if I was off and called you every day, it wouldn't be too bad, would it?  You'd know you're being thought of and appreciated.  End of CD 23

Santa Ana School – CD 24

My mother was a woman so I know how women like to be treated.  So I treat 'em accordingly, okay? 

(Isn't that different for different women?)

Not a great amount – just in technique.  The basic principle is the same.  (laughter)  They love attention, they love approval and they want to feel they're important and that you're the only female that's ever thought of.  And you want to be sure you're never too far out of mind.  Is there any lady in here who wants to disagree with that?  (Laughter)

(I think you got it down pretty well.) 

I'm a half-breed; I know what you want.  My mother was a woman so I've got part of it in me.  Yes, love?

(What do men want?)  (laughter)

Well, if I stopped to see what men wanted I wouldn't be able to think about what ladies want.  I told you what I wanted:  peace, quiet, joy and a pretty little lady who is so glad she's appreciated that she's a joy to be around, okay?  If I stop to think about what I want and then I'd be lookin', sayin', "She isn't doin' it," we'd have a fight.  So what I want to do is, shall we say, is be in charge.  And to be in charge means I want everthing I'm around to be pleasant and peaceful and quiet.  And I see that it is that way.  Now, I have travelled around a bit in the world and found that if you treat a lady like she wants to be treated, okay?... that she's pretty apt to have a very decided attachment and attraction and wants to be included and be along.  So you have to be careful where you do all the time.  'Cause sometimes you get out of hand before you even thought about it – you was just bein' nice and they get… ‘cause very few people have been treated nicely, you know.  Because most everbody has been havin’ somebody makin' demands on you. 

You see the average thing, Judy, if two people got together and each one started demanding something of the other so they’d feel good – well, I feel good to begin with and so I can dish it out, okay?  And I get a great return for my little price that I pay of being, treating a lady like I know that half of me wants to be treated, okay?  And I get great benefits from it, but it does have its necessities.  In other words I gotta pay the price.  Anybody in here can have a perfect, beautiful, delightful – I think the word is “relationship” in California.  I call 'em “associations” you see 'cause I think a relationship is if my head up here says, “Toe wiggle,” it does and I've never seen when I said wiggle at a girl, she always did.  So I think it's an association there, you see.  But call it whatever word you want to, it's immaterial to me.  But there's a price I pay for it to be like I want it.  You talk about not wantin' to get hurt; I’m not gonna get hurt.

(How's that?)

Because I'm gonna treat her so durn nice, she's not gonna hurt me.

(Hmm…)

Hmm.  And then if I ever decided I wanted to go somewheres I got to taper that down for a while, see? 

(You mean if you want to leave that association?)

Oh, if I wanted to, yes.

(Then you'd taper that down.)

(You wouldn't treat her as nice.)

But not badly.  Course that would be… I have never seen a reason to do that, you know, okay?  But you see some people put a first value to get revenge.  Did you ever have that feeling that the greatest thing in your life was to get revenge on somebody and make them pay for how they treated you?  Mmm? 

(Yeah.)

And, of course, there's a price to pay for that.  There's a lot of fights, a lot of scraps 'cause they're gonna defend themselves against you gettin' revenge.  And you feel terrible and they feel terrible and they say, "Well, that's the way it is when two people get together,” Judy.  But it does not have to be that way, and if any of you want to check up, I'll let you check up and I will demonstrate that it doesn't have to be that way, okay? 

(I have an idea that's probably wrong, but it seems.....)

No doubt.  (laughter)

(It seems like men could have a relationship with almost any woman.  But women can't have a relationship with any man.  Just cause he's nice or treats you well that doesn't mean you can love him.  What is it that permits a woman to love a man?)

Because he treats her the way she wants to be treated, not just nicely.

(No…)

(But didn't you say before that love is rejection or something?  That people just...)

No, what I said is that's when they get all these “dramatic” loves, you know. 

(I can tell you're a man.)  (laughter.)

Sweet one, what'd you say?

(I said you agree with it – I can tell you're a man!)

Well, I'm a half-breed, honey; but I'm pretty well acquainted that no doubt, you see, I have done little experiments in my life – a few – and find out things.

(Okay.)

Okay?  And I have not seen the lady that when she was treated properly without (and it's a lot of skill involved in that I'll have to admit and I'm fairly well experienced in life… quite a bit of skill on the subject, okay?) that the lady will get a certain little romantic feeling in a while.  It's like planting a seed.  It has to be taken care of.  You know a lot of men go grrrah [makes a growling sound] – whatever, and that don't work, huh? 

(Bob, you once said, I believe, that there was not a difference between a male and a female.)

There was not what?

(That there wasn’t a difference between a male and a female.)

Oh yeah, there's quite a little difference.

(Well, other than physical.)

Plumbing.

(Are you intimating that the women are just people that can be influenced by outside....)

No.  I'm not implying such things – under any circumstance.  I'm saying that most ladies have never been treated like they wanted to be treated.

(I agree with that.)

Now then we're gettin' down to brass tacks.  I have found that most ladies have been ignored, exploited, etc., etc., etc.  I have also noticed most men have been ignored, exploited, etc., etc. because they don't understand each other at all.

(Right.)

Okay? 

(I agree.)

So I’m on track so far, huh?  (laughter)  So far, huh?  And I have found that if you take the time and the finesse and the skill and the interest (above all) to make a lady feel like a lady, she likes to remain in that position for as long as she continues to feel like a lady.  Now got any arguments over here?  Robin, you're a beautiful little thing, how about that?

(Oh, yeah.)

How about that, Barbara?  You stuck your nose in.

(Absolutely!)

Okay.  Now of course if the guy that was doin' this was a slob… but you see that's not part of the program.  You see if I went around dirty and so forth, I wouldn't be considerate of you, huh?  And if I wasn't… and I acted like a slob and poured my beer on the living room floor and hollered and screamed, that wouldn't be being what I'm talkin’ about, hmm?

(Mm-hmm.)

Have you always kind of longed to be treated a little bit different than you've ever been?  You know, way back over here in the back of your head, you didn't want us to allow yourself to think about it, but there was always like there was much missing.

(Yes.)

Is that correct, dear?  How about you?

(That's right.)

How about you, Lois?  We're not talkin’ out of school.  But if somebody supplied that which was missing, now that covers a multitude of things, you see.  I don't think you'd kick him out the door would you, Robin?

(Uh-uh.)

Now, obviously Robin wouldn't want to have a date with an old guy 80 years old or somethin' like that (even though he was nice to her) but even that'd be better than a young one who pushed you around, wouldn't it, honey?  Huh?  Rather have a few days of joy than years of agony, okay?  So I also know that men when they are treated that way are pretty gentle creatures.  But when you come in and scream at him because he didn't bring home enough money this month or because he'd been gone too much or because he didn't remember your birthday or Christmas.  So I try to make ever day a birthday or a Christmas – one or the other – and above all, Thanksgivin’ Day.  And Judy, while you probably feel that only a few men in the world could come down as a gift from heaven and fall on yours as made in heaven, I think if I set out with a small campaign to have you feel very much like a lady, I could do it, okay?  Even though I'm many years older than you are, bet I could get you where you'd like to go places with me.  (laughter)

(Nobody's made it their mission yet.)  (more laughter)

Yep.  (Everybody laughs and talks)

(I've never had a diamond, Bob.)

You haven't.

(No, that's for sure.)

You've never had a diamond.  You've never had telephone calls ever few minutes in a day.  You've never been sent roses?

(I don't think so.)

You don’t think so… Nobody really has been workin' at making you feel like a lady!  I think it would be such a shock to you, you'd probably get sick for a day or two.  One of your more serious ailments; but you'd probably know to quit in a few minutes.  Yeah, question?

(Does bringing about this treatment have to do with what we talked about two weeks ago about deciding how you want to feel – acting like you feel that way and then...?)

Well that would be pretty close to it, wouldn't it?  How would you like to… See, if I was gonna look at Judy, I'd say, "Well how would I act so that I’d make her feel that way?"  So it can also work the other way, do you see?  Hmm? 

(Oh.)

So how do I act to make you feel like you're appreciated and enjoyed and so forth and so on?  Huh?  And if I act that way, I will feel the part and if I feel it, I'd make it awful easy to demonstrate to you, is that right?

(Mm-hmm.)

Okay.  You like to be treated lovely, don't you? 

(Sure.)

And you don't like being ignored or rejected or taken for granted.  You've been married for quite a while, haven't you, one way or another?  Did you ever feel.....

(Several times.)  (she’s chuckling)

Well I don't care how many times...   Both of 'em wind up… did you finally get the feelin’ like you was just taken for granted like the dining room table and so forth and so on?

(Surely.)

And that's just not much fun then, is it?  Now if you were never taken for granted and somebody was considerin’ your feelings and your delights and your so forth and you were always appreciated ever day, you wouldn't feel you were bein’ taken for granted, would you? 
[someone raises their arm up]  You're just scratchin'.  Okay. 

(I’ve observed sometimes you really show a lot of appreciation and caring and you’re really giving and they get bored.)

Well....

(They come to expect it.)

Oh yeah, they quickly begin to expect it, so you always have to start off with knowing that you can give 'em pay raises ever so often.  (laughter)  You see if you only got the same paycheck year in and year out, you would get to feelin' that they just took you for furniture, wouldn't they?  So always leave a little room to give a raise next year.

(Okay.)

A little more.  You see, every year you get prettier.  I've known you for a couple of years and each year you gain quite a bit.  Did you know that?  And I would let you know about it if I was around.  And I bet a very few guys have told you that.

(You're right.)  (laughter) 

Right?  They haven't even noticed it; so they take you for granted.  What, honey?

(Bob, one of the things that I've noticed that men do is when you start to appreciate them and show them a lot of attention, they start getting the scared feeling and they say, "Oh I don't want a relationship, I don't want to get involved.  I don't want to lose my freedom.")

You been runnin' around with some odd characters.

(Oh… there's a lot of 'em.)  (laughing)

I know it.  But you see, they begin to see that as a dependency situation – you started dependin’ on 'em.  You always have to remain a little bit of independent because a man gets scared to death of something that is getting too dependent on him or independent.  Now I'm not talkin’ about men.  I'm talkin’ about infants with grown bodies and technical educations, which is what you generally associate with.  (laughter)  As long as you do just the right thing, they purr; but even then they get tired of a new toy, you see. 

(How do you prevent that from happening?)

Well, I wouldn't run around too much with infants with grown bodies and technical educations.

(How can you tell the difference?  I mean sometimes you know they seem really… they seem like they’re not ...)

Yeah, they come on strong, don't they?

(Yeah, and they seem like a non-infant.)

Well, you just stick around a few days.  You can tell the difference very quickly.  You can tell an infant with a grown body from a real grownup, okay?  And I'll admit there's more of the former than the latter.  So, you don't buy every blouse you see in the store, do you?

(No.)

Okay.  You kind of pick around through 'em.  You even picked around before you got that one didn't you, honey?  Okay.  So yes, there's… I know what you mean… there's a tremendous lot of people that if you get even that you would have anything that remotely could be a fairly close relationship or any co-living, why one wants to run because they're scared; they don't want to be responsible.  So the main thing that to tell an infant from a grown body – with a grown body and a technical education – from a grown up is that the infant with the grown body doesn't not want any responsibility.  Period.  He wants to be given, given, given and petted by mama, but he doesn't wanna wash the dishes for mama.  And he doesn't want to carry out the trash for mama.  But he wants her to give him everything, is that right?  So ladies have raised up a lot of men pampered and they expect all the rest of 'em to remain the same way.

(Did you hear that?)

I did.  I heard it.  Mamas is gonna raise their children up to show them they love them, mm-hmm, right?  And they raise their little boys without any responsibility at all except make good grades and keep mama pleased.  And they don't have to do anything and don't wanna do anything and then they expect they'll always be treated that way.

(Is that why… you know...)

I'm glad my mother didn't love me.  (laughter) 

(They sometimes seem to really react to rejection.  I mean the more you reject them the more they love you, so....)

Well, the more they hang under your feet and scratch at the door, yes, hon – not love...)

(Those are the infants then.)

Oh, those are infants with grown bodies.  You can check 'em out real easy.

(Bob, I notice when I come to sessions like this that there's a large conference of women.  For example I think there are four men here and sixteen women.  Why is it that....)

Well, maybe if the person sittin' up here was a woman, it'd be the other way around.

(Yeah.)

(You attract women.)

I hope so. 

(Is it possible that men are brought up in such a way that they don't pay attention to feelings and learning about feelings?)

Well, it seems to be that that's partially an effect and also most of 'em have such an ego that they couldn't possibly look at anything that would be of any value to 'em because they already know it.  They've known it all their life and that's the biggest authority they’re trying to please.  And they're also great blamers – mama taught them to blame as she was raisin' 'em up.  The trouble with most men, they were raised by mamas.  

(Would it be different if they were raised by papas?)

Well, preferably just let 'em grow up. 

(My first marriage, I was married to Adolph Hitler the first time. (laughter)  Is it the infant in me that kept me in that relationship for years?)

Oh, not necessarily.  It was that urge that, “I'm going to make this marriage work!”  You read it in all the slick magazines.  And once you were married, you were supposed to make it work.  And then, of course, very few people could just simply say, "I'm goin'."  We have a great aversion to changin' our lifestyle even though it's damned unpleasant.

(Yes.)

Isn't that right?

(Yes.)

Surprisingly how much aversion we go to, to prevent changin' a lifestyle no matter how unpleasant it may be.

(That's more threatening than living with the....)

Well, at least the one is known and the other, the unknown, which is what would be if you suddenly changed your lifestyle – it's a great big old unknown out there and most of us is scared to death of the unknown.

(Mm-hmm.)

And once you find out that the unknown's where all the fun is, you're always lookin' for it aren't you, Russ?

(That's right.)

But other people look at us and think what kind of kooks we are because we leave the known and take off for the unknown.  But the unknown is sure a lot of fun.  That's where it's all at.  They hid it out there in the unknown.  And so you stayed with the known, didn't you?

(Bob, one more thing that once you start dealing with the unknown there is no unknown.)

Well, that's right, but everbody's scared of it until they start dealing with it and then we find out that's where all the fun is and so we know where the fun is – it's in what other people call the unknown.  But you do resist havin’ a sudden change in your lifestyle, do you not?  Yes, ma'am.

(Not only that; but a lot of women like to be bossed around.)

Well, I've heard that… but I never found one around me that would put up with that!  (Laughter)  You like being bossed around, Chris?

(I used to love it.)

Well, that made you feel like you were...

(Protected.)

Protected, yeah.  Didn't last long though, did it, Gary?

(Oh, not from Gary!)  Gary responds: (I came along and saved her.)   (laughter)

You “took her away from all this.”  That's a good line at the bar, but it don't work very good anywheres else.  That works good at the bar but nowheres else.  I think that that idea of being bossed around is a very short-lived want, hmm?

(Oh, yeah.  It’s unhealthy.)

It’s what?

(It's unhealthy.)

I don’t know whether it’s unhealthy, but I know that it's a self-limiting disorder somehow – very self-limiting – it lasts maybe a week or two at the most.  Yeah, Judy?

(Is that another chauvinist pig remark?)  (laughter) 

Are you a female chauvinist pig? 

(Oh yeah.  I really think women on the whole are a lot more evolved than most men are.)

I wouldn't doubt that a bit in the world.

(I mean her observation is four men here.  Most men are the biggest lot....)

I believe I beat you to the remark that they were so egotistical that they couldn't admit that they could learn anything.

(That's right.  And so why is it that women keep going for men who are real schmucks?)   (big laughter)

The main reason is, you have the mother implant and know you can improve 'em if you just once get 'em in the house, honey.  You know, a lot of girls pick up stray cats and dogs and stray kids, don't they out there?  That right, Judy?

(Yeah, but is it because there's really nothing out there for us?)

Well, there is, but you're not discriminating.  You have that sympathy feeling, "Oh that poor thing, I can take him and fix him up and then he'll be worthwhile."

(But if there are 16 of us that means that was maybe one good one for each four of us.)

Well…talk to the Mormons up in Salt Lake – maybe they'll fix it for you. 

(Why do women so badly choose men?  I mean...)

Well, I said they get their emotions in the way and they have a mothering thing and they want to help 'em, you know.  I've had a gal say, "Well, I know I can make him quit drinkin’ if I could just get him home," you know.  And I fix their broken nose and their broken arm and everthing else where she was tryin’ to improve on him so he wouldn't be an alcoholic anymore.  I know girls that knowingly go out and marry an alcoholic 'cause they know they can reform him if they just give him enough love.  ‘Cause they met him down at the bar and he said, “The only reason I'm doin' this is because I wasn't loved as a child.”

(Yeah.)

Yeah.  (laughter)  The guy walks up and said, "I just never did have love."  And I look at him and think, “Well you aren't very loveable, you slob.”  (laughter)  You know, I heard somebody tryin’ to tell me that, “Children should all be loved,” one time.  I said, "Well it wouldn't hurt the little urchins to be a little loveable if we're supposed to go through with it."  I'll look after 'em this year but don't tell me I got to love 'em too.   So also probably, Judy, is that women feel that they're capable of reforming men (infants with grown bodies and technical educations) and I will tell you that is an egotistical idea, okay?  Forget it.  Did you ever try to reform one? 

(Yeah.)

How'd you do? 

(Failed.)

How about you, you look like you might have tried to reform a few in your day?

(Sure; what happened is I got more messed up than he did.)

Right.  Sometimes, you see, it don't pay to try to climb slick walls without any cleats on your feet.  You ever try to reform a few, Cici?

(Once, uh-huh.)

How'd you do?

(No so good.)

Not so good.  It just don't work.  And you’ve probably have tried to reform two or three with your great big heart that just goes out to all of humanity to these unfortunate people that you know that if you just love them, well they'd be all right.

(I don't do that anymore, but when I did –)

Thank goodness.

(– but when I did do it there was a lot of conflict.)

Yep and it didn't work very well did it?

(No.)

Okay.  I hope that's clear, you know – that's a losin’ game; don't try to reform him. 

(I still don't understand how you tell the infants from the ones with the technical education.)

The infants with grown bodies and technical educations....

(Right, right, right, right.)

Sometimes they have very handsome bodies to walk around in, got a marvelous technical education, but they're an infant.

(Well, how do you tell the difference?  I still don't know – I get fooled.)

Well, I'll try to give you a little private discussion on that because I wouldn't want to turn that out here for everbody because....)

If we'll turn off the tape recorders?

No not tape recorders.  I'll take you off in a corner and try to point that out.

(Well, I'd like to know too.)  (everybody talks)

What'd you say?

(I said most of the women here would like to know that.)

Well I know they do, but.....

(All the men leave the room.)  (laughter)

I don't want to expose anybody, you see.  I have to walk a tight line, okay?  Do you have the little picture that I show you sometimes called the Picture of Man?  It has the Four Dual Basic Urges, the Complainer, the Sticker up for Rights and the Blamer on it?  Mmm?  And on the other side it has a Pleaser, and a Quoter of Authorities and Be Different.  You got that?

(Uh-huh.)

Well, everbody you sit down and talk to, you listen to see how well they're livin' that.  Now that's the picture of an infant with a grown body and a technical education, okay? 

(How much they’re into avoiding pain and all that?  I mean how much they’re into looking into those?)

Complaining, sticking up for their rights and blamin’ – don't ask any questions, just sit around and listen a minute.  And you can also know that they're lookin’ for attention and approval.  Did you ever try to just kind of ignore somebody for a minute and see what happens?  Or was you so jumpy that you was trying to give it up without checking up?  So you keep the Picture of Man with you and if they fit it, that's an infant with a grown body and a technical education. 

(If they do a lot of complaining and blaming and all that kind of stuff.)

Yeah, that's what we're pointing out.  So you listen to what's coming out of him and you listen to what's coming out of you; don't sit there and interview him.  But just listen what comes out of this voice and what comes out of that voice and you will hear it very quickly, okay?  Yes, sir.

(It may be a motherly instinct, but many women seem to look for these children.)

Oh yes, they have a great urge to have 'em around and they're always lookin’ for weaklings and then crying after they get 'em. 

(That isn't exclusive for women either because.....)

Well, I know that, sir.

(I've done that with two alcoholics that I went to try to reform them.)

You was just gonna love 'em and they would quit that foolishness wouldn't they?  It didn't work, did it?

(No they got more drunk.)

They drank more 'cause you could go get it for 'em.  So you see there is men and women both that are infants with grown bodies and an awful lot of men.  I said we're all half-breeds anyway.  So sometimes their mothering side, the part I inherited from my mother, wants to go out and take care of these poor little unfortunates and they look sad and they got very sad eyes and you just feel that, you know, as a decent person you should do somethin' about that, right?

(Uh-huh.)  (By the way of these people, these grown infants –)

Infants with grown bodies.

(Yeah, okay… becoming aware of themselves, they can become aware of what they're doing and change.)

Well, that's why I do all this fiddlin' around talkin’ about everything.  Otherwise I wouldn't be doin' it, honey.  It's a possibility – remote even though it be. 

(But it is remote, though, isn't it?)

It's not very thick anyway, we’ll put it like that.

[woman talks with heavy accent]  (I was married for 25 years to a blamer.)

A blamer.  That's what she said – blamer, wasn't it?

(With the Teaching you could limit the blaming and not take the blame.)

Naw, just go on, just agree with him.  And every time you go in and you start blaming for him before he gets started, you know he won't know what to do.

(Say it again. I wanna...)

Well every time you go in the house, start blaming for him.

(No, he blamed me.)

Well, I know that's the way; but now you start blaming for him.  Don't do it for yourself, but you blame for him.  Tell him how terrible everything is.

(She doesn't mean blame things on him.)

No, blaming for him. 

[A woman tries to clarify to her what Bob is saying]  (He means speak it as if you were speaking.  Say it before he has a chance; tell him you’re bad, the kids are bad, you know.)

And that he must be a saint to put up with a sloppy gal like you and so on and so on. 

(That's what I said, with the Teaching…)

Sure, you just turn it around on him.

(Right.)

So you can have quite fun.  You don't have to be bothered with that.   I interned in a mental hospital and they had a girl there that continually told you the same story.  She told it over and over.  She said, "For years and years ever time he came in the house, he said, 'What are you doin' that for'?  Why are you doin' that?"  Well, there's no answer to that – you're just doin' it, you know.  And she said, "One day he walked in and I was sittin' makin' him a shirt on my little sewing machine and I had the scissors in my hand clippin' off the loose ends of the thread and he come in and he said, ‘Why are you doin' that?’ and I don't know what happened, but I just shoved the scissors right through there and he fell dead."  So you tell your husband that story and maybe he'll straighten up.  (laughter)  One complainin’ too much and, “I can't control it and the scissors went right through his neck and he fell dead,” she said.  So she told everybody she met that story. 

(Ummm.)  (She didn't go to jail then.)

No, she went to a mental hospital.  She was in a jail.  She never talked about anything else I don’t think.  She was totally out of it but she told you that story – she just couldn't understand how there was a breakin’ point.  And when he said, "Why are you doing that?" she said that they when right through his neck.  So you tell him that story, will you?  (laughter)

(I doubt it would change him.)

Okay – questions, comments.  Can you value what you want?  If you do, you find a way to do it.  If you value having a delightful, peaceful household, you may do so.  I said you got to be able to be a windbreak – there's a price to pay for it.  You can't just be entitled to it.  You see, the way the most of us don't have a delightful existence in our personal lives that we feel we're entitled to it.  It's supposed to just happen.  Is that right?

(Mm-hmm.)

It don't.  It's like anything else – there has to be an effort involved, a price to pay.  So if I don't put any effort on it, I get what no effort gets – chaos, you know.  It's like if you cultivate a field or a garden and anything and take care of it, it has in it what you want; but if you just leave it growin’, it grows up in weeds, right? 

There's a story told in the Deep South about an old colored farmer who had a beautiful farm and everything.  And one Sunday he invited the preacher home for dinner on Sunday after the church service in the mornin'.  And after a glorious dinner of fried chicken and all the good things that grows on the farm in the spring (and they’d slept that off for a while and rested) why the preacher went out with the owner to look at the farm.  So he saw all the pretty fences and all the trash cleaned out from under 'em and the pretty cows and the pretty calves and the pretty chickens and everthing was just wonderful.  And the crops were all growin' pretty and the preacher said to this southern farmer, "Sam, the Lord has sure been good to you."  And old Sam pushed his straw hat back and scratched his head a little bit and he said, "Preacher, you should have seen this farm when the Lord had it by himself!"   (laughter)  So when you see a household or existence or a relationship that's just lettin' the Lord run it, it's chaos.  So you better do a little cultivatin' it on your own, okay?  You can have it any way you want if you cultivate it.  But if you don't cultivate it, it’s a royal mess.  Did you ever have your house and just let nature take care of it?  Mmm?  It grows up in weeds very quickly, you see.  Okay, any other questions, comments?  Yes, sir.

(In experimenting with value, I get mixed up with judgment.  I end up things getting....)

Well, what’s wrong with judging it as being of value to you? 

(Well, I'm placing a good or bad thing on it – you know, in relationship.)

How about when you place good or bad, you put on it "to me"?  After all, you're the only guy that says "bad" to you is that right?  That qualifies it.  Now if you simply say it's "bad" you're leaving it bad for me and maybe I just love it.  Okay? 

(Yeah.)

Now if it's "to you", it's no “NG” [slang for “no good”], huh?  But maybe I like it.  So you don't judge judges when you're tryin’ to make it for all of us.  And valuing it is when you make it for you.  Is that all right?  Now you can hack that, can't you, sir?

(Right.)

Okay, Lois?

(The first couple years of our marriage I spent trying to reform and..)

Straighten out.

(Yeah.  And then I dropped back and now I can really get stimulated and go the distance…be there for both of us.)

So and you also build a few windbreaks around, don't you?

(Yeah, and he does too.)

Right.  So it's a very peaceful, enjoyable thing when you're not tryin’ to straighten each other out.  And you do not just leave it up to the Lord – you cultivate the field and clean out the mud rocks yourself.  You should have seen that marriage when the Lord was lookin' after it.  (chuckling)  Right, Lois?

(You shouldn't have.)  [Bob is chuckling]

It had a lot of weeds and cockle burrs and all sorts of things growin' in it.  It didn't look all well cultivated and taken care of; but it can be at any time you want to.

(He wasn't the only infant around.)

Well, that's true, we're well aware of that.  I said mostly the earth is populated with… If you approach it as though the whole earth were populated with infants with grown bodies and technical educations, you will never experience a disappointment.  But you may have a few pleasant surprises.  You will never be disappointed; but you will have a few pleasant surprises, okay? 

(You should approach them all as if they were infants?)

Oh, sure.  And you will never be disappointed, but you may have a few and you will have a few very pleasant surprises.  Now it never upsets you to have a pleasant surprise, does it, Debbie?

(No.)

But it very upsets you to be disappointed, isn't it?  So if you approach 'em as they're all grown ups, you're gonna have a tremendous number of disappointments.  And then you feel hurt, and then you look for blame and then you feel angry, guilty, fearful, insecure and get all torn up.
But if you approach 'em as they're all infants with grown bodies and technical educations, you will never have a disappointment; but you will probably have several (not a great number, but several) very pleasant surprises. 

(And you're coming from that place, then you're just not expecting much because they're children.)

Well, no, you're expectin’ factual things instead of an ideal.

(What they are.)

Yeah, what they are and that's called "Lookin' at it like it is," honey.  Okay?  Questions, comments.  Yeah.

(Sometimes it’s not clear to a person really what his values or her values are.)

That's very true.  That's time to sit down and calculate.  Get your little calculator out and start pushin' buttons. 

(How can you lead somebody to a kind of understanding of knowing where they are, where they're going or whatever?)

You mean me tell somebody what else what they're values are?  No way!

(No, I said help somebody to discover their own values.)

Well, all you can do is point out that you do value things and not.  But you cannot, I could not set anyone else's values out; but I can point out to you what your values already are sometimes and you may could re-evaluate them because they… some of yours are carried over from childhood you know.  So it's what we've been doin’ all week is pointing out where they were.  Yesterday when we talked about all the not-I's runnin’ round, how they plead at you, they are trying to sell you their ideas, their values.  I don't want to sell you any values.  I got my own, but that's enough.  But you can certainly choose any value as first value and certainly you would draw some seconds and thirds and fourth as backups, you know.  ‘Cause when you get the first one realized, then what do you do?  You go get the second one and make it first then or somethin' like that.   But the point I'm trying to point out, you can't have two first values at the same time and most of us haven't taken the time to put them in sequence of now which one I want on top this mornin'.   I can’t tell you what to make as first value.  Maybe it's the greatest first value in life that you can have is to reform waywards.  I don't know...you had it for your first value to rebuild alcoholic ladies for a while didn't you? 

(Mm-hmm.)

You've given that up I assume.

(You're right.)

You lived through that stage. 

(Yeah.)

It's just a stage you were goin' through.  Question, comment?  Yeah.

(One of my friends has used the term ‘being out of time’.  Can you describe what that is?  I think I understand but I'd like to...)

Being out of time is acting as though now were then.  Then were now, okay?  So let's say that when you were a little girl, you probably liked to take your teddy bear to bed with you, huh?

Continued............

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